where the doctor go Options

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Let me add however, I think the S54 is a great transmission. It definately gets the job done well in stock form and provides some nice quick gears to enjoy the high RPM's of the 3SGTE.

I personally wouldn't use one on a V6 swap however, my reason being that the S54 is much better designed for a 4 cylinder with a broad RPM band, not so much a torquey V6 with a more conservitive RPM range and more narrow powerband. I just can't imagine cruising at 80mph with a fresh new V6 swap on the highway, and my RPMs are already at 4,000 RPMs with my S54.....anything above that in any gear and you'll slowly say goodbye to alot of the motors inherently present torque and power that you can take advantage of with the optimized lower ratios of the E153. It was, afterall, engineered by Toyota FOR the motor to bring out the best efficiency and power......the Camry and Solara E153's use a longer final drive, albeit the same gear ratios, as the MR2's E153 to further assist all that V6-y goodness to come into play. The V6 isn't such a rev=HP sort of motor like the 4AGE/3SGE/3SGTE family of engines.

Will the S54 work? Of course.
Will the E153 work? Certainly does.

But when it comes down to it, I think each trans is better suited for certain applications, in my opinion. I'd bet money that you'd feel alot more torque steer issues using an S54 as well, its just the way a V6 would respond to such short gearing and a low-RPM torque curve.

This is just my opinion, feel free to express your thoughts.

[Dr_Tweak]

Keep in mind during this discussion that you can indeed get an LSD for the S54, and considering that the stock LSD in the E153 is designed for a rear wheel drive car, and they are VERY hard to find in good condition, installing an aftermarket LSD into your S54 is a great option to have.

I would be nice to have a longer final drive though!

-Doc

[Negative]

That being said - how much for the s54 LSD?
-and-
Couldn't you just change the 5th gear from e153 to s54? If so how much parts wise would we be looking at for that.
The reason I ask is I personally like my 1-4th gears but 5th sux bad. I already get incredible highway mileage - imagine with a longer 5th?!?

[Punisher]

Keep in mind during this discussion that you can indeed get an LSD for the S54, and considering that the stock LSD in the E153 is designed for a rear wheel drive car, and they are VERY hard to find in good condition, installing an aftermarket LSD into your S54 is a great option to have.

I would be nice to have a longer final drive though!

-Doc

Um.. personally if you are doing an e153 swap you'd be better off getting an aftermarket LSD.. After you find yourself a good toyota LSD.. get MR2 inner stubs.. well **** you just bought yourself a new aftermarket LSD of your choice and matching axles.

I'm going to have to keep my hard assed approach on the s54 as well.. it's ass ass ass ass ass ass ass.. Learn how to drive with a real transmission in your car.. not that damn go-kart 5spd.

That being said - how much for the s54 LSD?
-and-
Couldn't you just change the 5th gear from e153 to s54? If so how much parts wise would we be looking at for that.
The reason I ask is I personally like my 1-4th gears but 5th sux bad. I already get incredible highway mileage - imagine with a longer 5th?!?

No. You'd have to get custom gears made. Or find a junk yard selling an e153 from a solara/camry for 400 dollars!

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

S54 LSD's are-out-of-this-world expensive, you'd have to source one from Japan out of an SSIII or the like, and then make sure everything in the differential is identical between JDM and USDM S54 variants.

That would solve some of the traction issues, but at the end of the day its still the same gearing. I suppose it depends on what you would want out of your setup.

[Negative]

That's the thing. I prefer the gearing [1st-4th] of the s54 but I want LSD. A longer 5th would just be gravy.

[Punisher]

That's the thing. I prefer the gearing [1st-4th] of the s54 but I want LSD. A longer 5th would just be gravy.

Ya well you will never get what you want out of the S54.. so just man up and get an E153 w/ LSD and stop playing in the sand box.

[celicast3sgte]

^^^ man up? he was stating the simple fact he wishes for the s54 gear ratios (1-4) and a longer 5th of the e153 and LSD optioned. wishful thinking does not mean he needs to "man up". its like you saying i wish i could date a jessica alba/eva mendes and him telling you no way in hell. time to man up! ... i mean honestly.

[lagos]

lol. this thread is pretty funny.

to me it boils down to this:

want to save money and have the fastest possible gearing? s54
want to spend more money and have LSD and longer gearing ? e153

a v6 swap will probably only put down about 180hp/tq at the wheels. at that power level, your traction will be just fine, and any torque steer will be minimal at best and very easy to control.

while LSD is nice to have, it will NOT take away your traction problems in a high hp/tq fwd car. the only thing LSD does is minimize torque steer. this might help a little with traction, it will not give you the performance you would get from an awd or rwd car.

[Dr_Tweak]

S54 LSD's are-out-of-this-world expensive, you'd have to source one from Japan out of an SSIII or the like, and then make sure everything in the differential is identical between JDM and USDM S54 variants.

That would solve some of the traction issues, but at the end of the day its still the same gearing. I suppose it depends on what you would want out of your setup.

That's not true, actually a number of companies make LSDs for the S54. However, ALL aftermarket LSD units are expensive.

while LSD is nice to have, it will NOT take away your traction problems in a high hp/tq fwd car. the only thing LSD does is minimize torque steer. this might help a little with traction, it will not give you the performance you would get from an awd or rwd car.

Actually you have that backwards. An ATB (autmatic torque biasing) differential, which is the type of LSD that you want to use in a FWD car (like the Quaife) will increase traction to a HUGE degree because it will automatically send power to the wheel which has the most traction. However, since the wheel with the MOST traction is getting power instead of the other way around, torque steer increases quite a bit! With a nice ATB LSD like the Quaife, when you step on the gas with a high power engine under the hood, you seriously need to HOLD ON TO THAT STEERING WHEEL!

An LSD WILL help take away your traction problems, but it will also INCREASE torque steer.

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Feb 9, 2007 - 10:43 PM

[lagos]

An LSD WILL help take away your traction problems, but it will also INCREASE torque steer.

huh? the whole idea behind an LSD is to attempt to evenly send the power to both wheels and reduce torque steer.

when you step on the gas with a high power engine under the hood, you seriously need to HOLD ON TO THAT STEERING WHEEL! smile.gif

yeah, thats how my car is now, because it lacks an LSD. so the power delivery is uneven, creating torque steer. .

This post has been edited by lagos: Feb 9, 2007 - 10:58 PM

[Dr_Tweak]

Nope. Drive a high powered FWD car with a nice LSD and you'll see what I mean. An LSD does NOT distribute power evenly to both wheels! It transfers power from a wheel that is slipping to the other wheel that has traction. When one wheel has more traction than the other, that wheel attemps to "leap ahead" of the other one, which in turn yanks your steering wheel. It's the exact same (but opposite) situation as when you bleed one of your front brakes and not the other side, the one that has air in it gets less braking effort, when you step on the brake, the steering wheel yanks toward the one that is slowing you down.

-Doc

[lagos]

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_slip_differential

Geared Torque-Sensitive Diff

Geared, torque-sensitive mechanical limited slip differentials utilize worm gears to "sense" torque on one shaft. The most famous versions are:

* Torsen differential invented by Vernon Gleasman in 1958, then sold to Gleason Corporation, who started marketing it in 1982;
* Quaife differential, sold under the name Automatic Torque Biasing Differential (ATB), covered by European Patent No. 130806A2.

Geared LSDs are less prone to wear than the clutch type, but both output shafts have to be loaded to keep the proper torque distribution characteristics. Once an output shaft becomes free (e.g. one driven wheel lifts off the ground; or a summer tyre comes over ice while another is on dry tarmac when the car goes uphill), no torque is transmitted to the second shaft and the torque-sensitive diff behaves like an open diff.

Geared LSDs are dependent on the torque and not on the speed difference between the output shafts. Such differentials may be acceptable on dry pavement, but are not adequate on slippery surface[3].

Geared LSDs may be used:

* to reduce torque steer in front-wheel drive vehicles;
* as a center diff in four-wheel drive (e.g. on Audi Quattro);
* in rear-wheel drive vehicles, to maximize traction and/or make power oversteer easier to manage (e.g. in Drifting).

This post has been edited by lagos: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:22 PM

[Dr_Tweak]

That's wonderful that you know how to read, but someday you should TRY DRIVING ONE YOURSELF INSTEAD OF POSTING THINGS YOU'VE READ.

Carry on chaps

[lagos]

That's wonderful that you know how to read, but someday you should TRY DRIVING ONE YOURSELF INSTEAD OF POSTING THINGS YOU'VE READ.

Carry on chaps

and what do you drive on a daily basis? i think i have more first hand experience with a high hp/tq fwd car then you do.


another link...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_steer

"Ways to reduce the effect of torque steer
# Distribute the torque better between the driveshafts. Automobile transmission manufacturers like Quaife, Torsen, TrueTrac, Gold Trac offer worm-gear-based torque-biasing limited slip differentials for front-wheel drive vehicles, which help to reduce the amount of torque steer[6][7] and improve cornering. "

[Dr_Tweak]

Quaife differentials are huge among SHO enthusiasts. Here's some interesting reading for you, since you base most of your opinions on what you read on the internet.

http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=67691
http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=56297
http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=2820
http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=56397

Here are some copies of these FIRST HAND accounts from people who OWN cars that have a quaife differential:

"Love the quaife .... it produces some torque steer under full throttle in 1st and 2nd ...... but the increased traction is worth it. Especially good accelerating out of a turn. The inside wheelspin issues are gone."

"since having my quaife installed it pulls to the right under acceleration. Is this a normal trait of the quaife?? it is NOT the alignment." -BlackonBlack89

"my car has a lot more torque steer with the quaife, but it accelerates much better through and out of turns ...... it also is faster off the line, but i have to be carefull ...... it wants to change lanes sometimes under hard acceleration" -bobreimer

"I find the large steering wheel to be very easy to over compensate, when correcting for the Quaife's torque steer, and I used to find myself swerving all over the road trying to keep my SHO going in a straight line. With the smaller steering wheel, it is 90 percent easier and more controlable to throw the SHO around and aim it were you really eant it to go." -rktmn

"I have blown two trannys so far and the Quaife survived each time. IMHO Quaife is one of the best three mods I have done to the car. You do feel a little more torque steer in first and second. -jedhead

"My buddy has an SVT Contour and after he installed a Quaife it actually feels worse from a torque steer perspective.

Like before 1 wheel would slip so it wasn't pulling that bad except on the 1-2 shift. But now both wheels are pulling like crazy and it's quite the handful getting off the line." -68style

"Yes, you can get a quaife, but it really won't help your torque steer problem." -noSHO

"no quaife noise here, just helluva lot of torque steer, lol" -ShadetreeSHOguy

In that case, the only downside to a Quaife is the increase in torque steer. It will improve your SHO in every other way. -K-Dawg

"The Quaife DOES increase torque steer... I don't know why people think otherwise. Think about it, you know have something that transfers power to the wheel with the most traction. Soon as one wheel gets traction, it will pull with it." -yamahaSHO

"The quaife will completely change the way the car handles when you are cornering and on the power. It will pull a much tighter line (tighter, in fact, than lift-throttle cornering) and feel much more predictable and stable.

The quaife can increase torque steer under certain conditions, but in normal driving it operates without any hint of what it is doing.

As Jason said, a smaller-diameter wheel would decrease the amount of leverage you have over the rack, and cause a distinct increase in the amount of torque steer." -AutoSHO

It goes on and on I will admit, however, that like you I was once misinformed about the whole torque steer issue and also thought that an LSD would help alleviate that. Years later, I know otherwise, and now you do too. If you don't beleive it, just try it sometime.

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:50 PM

[lagos]

since you base most of your opinions on what you read on the internet.

excuse me?

[Punisher]

Dr. Tweak is partially right.. I have noticed an apparent torque steer.. but.. however for me it goes in both directions.. not just to the left. When I get on the throttle in a low gear like 2/3rd.. The front end has a tendency to go all over the road.. to the left.. the right.. the steering gets real loose and flighty.. heh. I'm starting to wonder if I don't have a locking diff though over a limited slip. Reasons being is when I turn a wheel the other turns in the same direction.. even when I just had axles in the trans.. um another thing is if I turn the wheel while stopped to make a hard turn.. I'm not talking about full lock either.. just anything more than a slight turn of the wheel.. I'll need to slip the clutch a lot more or else the front end bucks around and gives me trouble.. and I've checked into every possible reason for it and found nothing.. other than the idea that i may actually have a locking diff.. would explain it.. differential isn't slipping.. so I have one wheel pulling more in the turn than the other wheel..

Another thing to add is the handling is much much better.. if I'm going through a tight turn.. instead of slowing down to hold traction I give it some gas.. that front end just sucks me through the turn.. and I've taken some wicked hard turns intentionally trying to get the car to slide out and no dice..

Oh and I'd consider myself to have a high power FWD vehicle.. dyno at 287whp at just over 290ft/lb.. if only I had some fuel upgrades.. I'd be well over 300 ah well.. this can be scary enough.. can't say how many times I've nearly crashed because of the steering getting all loose and pulling all over the road.

This post has been edited by Punisher: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41 PM

[lagos]

punisher, an LSD will REDUCE the effect of torque steer, but it will not totally eliminate it. we will have to go for a ride in each others cars one day and compare them side by side. im willing to bet that your tq steer is nowhere near as bad as mine. if i really get on it in 2nd gear, i have to be very careful not to end up in the lane next to me because of all the TQ steer going on and the car pulling the wheel side to side.

[Punisher]

^^^ man up? he was stating the simple fact he wishes for the s54 gear ratios (1-4) and a longer 5th of the e153 and LSD optioned. wishful thinking does not mean he needs to "man up". its like you saying i wish i could date a jessica alba/eva mendes and him telling you no way in hell. time to man up! ... i mean honestly.

I didn't mean anything as a bash on someones dreams.. but he asked if it was possible.. and I answered him pretty simply.. no. Also when you start putting down some good HP.. you won't want that s54 anymore.. unless you like to shift a lot.. A lot of people think the S54 will be fine with their swap.. and for some maybe so. But after you drive an E153 swap.. specially one with a LSD .. you'll be a believer. I don't have to shift constantly either.. I can just drive and pay attention to that instead of having to constantly shift.. If I'm racing.. I won't even have to get out of 3rd gear .. By 7K I'll be knocking on a 100mph.. On the dyno I was doing a 140mph in 4th at 7K rpm.

punisher, an LSD will REDUCE the effect of torque steer, but it will not totally eliminate it. we will have to go for a ride in each others cars one day and compare them side by side. im willing to bet that your tq steer is nowhere near as bad as mine. if i really get on it in 2nd gear, i have to be very careful not to end up in the lane next to me because of all the TQ steer going on and the car pulling the wheel side to side.

You'll **** enough bricks to build a house when you drive my car and bunch it in 2nd/3rd.. You talk about the next lane to the left.. I'm talkin about the next lane to the left.. or the right. I almost went into a median on the highway cuz I punched it in third and up around 6K I ended up hitting a bump on the highway .. a transition from a bridge back to the road and the steering whipped off to the left... then I corrected and it snapped back to the right.. the steering gets soooo damn sensitive. It's not torque steer like you know it.. that's why I said tweak is right in a sense..