final steps and break-in on fresh rebuilt motor?, questions as to if my plans are ok.. and a few last items needing help Options

[mandrek]

ok, wrapping up the rebuild of my lil'7AFE and have a few questions that i would like to ask all of you...more of opinions and advice than absolute "help" but just a few things that i would like answered before i finish putting he back together and start her up...

i am going w/ Royal Purple for just about everything... unfortunately they do not have an antifreeze.. so my first question pertains to that.

1: what coolant mixture and brand anti-freeze do any of you raced/turbo'ed 7AFE peeps use? -i will be in the south (gulf shore area) for the foreseeable future, and was looking at a 70-distilled water/30-anti-freeze + Royal Purple "ice" additive.
but have also looked into the Idea of 100% distilled water+the "ice".. i understand that the the 'anti-freeze also serves as a rust inhibitor, and lubricant for the water pump. but there is also the fact that no other liquid conducts heat better than water.

First start/Engine Break-in:
this is what i plan on doing, and is a combination of all of the information that i have gathered on breaking in a rebuilt motor. also assuming that everything is hooked up, and all fluids are filled.

1)Start with some cheap oil and a good filter.
2)Prime the oil pump: from my understanding, unplug the injector clips and power to the dizzy, and have the motor turn over a few times (aprox 15-20 sec), then re-install clips and power to the dizzy.
3)Start the car, (again assuming that all is well) and let the motor warm up for approx 20-30 min. might leave one of the vac lines unattached to get the RPM's to fluctuate and flutter. as well as use this time to burp the coolant, check for leaks, ensure that all electrical's are hooked up correctly.
4)Turn off the car and drain the oil compleatly.. (and dumped into container for recycle center-not to be reused by me) as well as removal of the filter.
5)Install new filter, and fill with Royal Purple Break-in fluid. use this to check once more for leeks and other fluid lvls'.

6)---now here is where i am not sure yet i have been reading ALLOT on how to break-in, and seat the the rings..

i have read, and re-read motoman's meathod..

and here are a few other variations of that method that i have pulled from around the net and a chunk from a supra forum.

On an 85 celica GTS: break-in method,
(this guy claims to have been re-building engines for over 10 years.)

I run between 1500-2000 rpms for 20 mins in the bay to break in the cam and then I go out and do 10 pulls in 2nd up to 4K then engine break down to 2K. Then i do this once everyday for 3 days after the car has completly cooled. This seats the rings solid.

Other method by guy on celicasupra.com

Break-in consensus on list as I remember it.
Use magnetic oil plug and/or flex magnet on oil filter.
Use regular oil (no synthetic)
Idle engine till it gets to operating temperature.
Do a series of many runs (20 or more) accelerating at wot and decelerating at idle. (Let engine do all braking.) (Up a hill for acceleration and downhill for braking is probably better since engine is under full load a longer time.) Keep engine under 5Krpm for first few runs.
Idle for a few minutes at end of break-in so magnets can collect metal particles
Change oil and filter immediately after break-in (50 miles or less, fewest miles is best) and clean magnetic plug.
Change oil again (and clean plug) at 500 miles and switch to syn oil.

and a few more from another supra forum.

I've been seeing this thread, wanting to post a response. since no one had touched it for a long time, and in fear of the flames, I'd held my tongue.. (ok, my keyboard)

If you look at the procedures for rotax ultralights, the basic idea is that of progressive loading periods followed by cool-downs.

But some of the Supra Gurus have distilled it down to this procedure..
First, dry crank the car for 15 seconds (disconnect coil packs and igniters)

Then, start the car, but do not let it idle - run it at about 1700-2000 rpm for about 30 seconds - long enough to know that there are no major leaks. For this, I had my kid with his foot on the throttle, watching the revs whils I looked with a flashlight all over and under the engine bay.

Then drive around for about 5 minutes, normally with the exception of not letting it idle. Again, quickly check for leaks.

Go somewhere where you have a lot of room to work (isolated highway) and go on progressive loads at 20, 30 40% throttle and in 10% increments all the way to 100%, all in 6th gear, for 15-30 seconds. Between each load cycle, you cruise at about 1700-2000 rpm for 5 minutes to cool things down. Towards the end, you will be going very, very fast.

This procedure heats/cools everything in progressive cycles, taking care of both sealing the rings and the metallic grain structure of the pistons.

Then change the oil and you are done.

I broke in my (oft maligned) new short block, Andi B broke in his new Z-06 (and ended up with more HP that most other Z-06's, but who's to tell what the cause was)

Credit goes to Lance W.

Cheers
Rich B 95 BPU 6-spd

Just wanted to write a quick follow-up on my break-in experience. I decided to return everything to stock before starting the new motor. Put the stock turbos, fuel, MAF, and stock ECU back in there. It fired up fine and ran great except for a small coolant leak on the firewall. After that was fixed, car was warmed up for 20 minutes and moderately flogged for 70 miles. I kept it under 5000-5500 rpm for the first couple hundred miles, but started boosting it to 10-11psi within 50 miles of break-in. Changed the oil at 70 miles, then again at 330 miles. Now it's got around 1200 city and highway miles on it, and I'm about to change it again. Engine sounds smooth and wonderful, no problems thus far. I'll post another follow-up as soon as a compression check is done. After another couple thousand miles are on the car, I'm going to switch over the big turbos/fuel/AEM and get it tuned correctly. Till then, it's a fun-ass BPU monster

I just found this thread, and I've got to throw in my $0.02.
When I built my first engine, many moons ago, I did the same search about breakin procedures. I searched the internet, consulted my factory manual, read anything I could find until I spoke to the head machinist where I worked. He was an older guy who was VERY intelligent, and didn't like doing things "by the book" just because it was "the book".
He told me to fire it up, break in the cam (if it was a pushrod flat-tappet style engine), then drive it like I stole it and change the oil within a week. Having been a cam grinder now, I agree with him as far as breaking the cam in goes, but that doesn't really apply to most import engines.
So, every engine I've ever built, I've started it up, got it up to operating temp, and beat the $HIT out of it!!! I've been doing this for almost ten years now, and it hasn't failed me once! Every engine I've ever built has been great, and passed with flying colours at the local emissions centers.
Reading what Motoman has to say makes me happy . He says to do what I've always done, and gave good reasons as to why.

so my last question is: how have/would you all do it?

[Box]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break-in_(mechanical_run-in)
Found that. I'd do a slow break in, but I'm the overly cautious type. Like the article says, depends on the engine. If anyone has their owner's manual it should say somewhere how it should be driven for the first 500-1,000 miles or so. I'd take that into consideration.

[RobbMeeX]

I read none of that, but I did read Gulf Shores, and if thats the case, I'm coming to hang at the beach! (I'll read and give you a serious answer in a sec.)

[RobbMeeX]

1. just adjust your mix and run more water (50/50?)
Break in: When I built my VW type IV motor, I broke it in on break in oil, but it doesn't have a cat. Just read next sentence, I'd go ahead and use the break in unless you think you may have an oil leak (you don't) Just use the break in oil.
Vary the RPM's. The TIV was broken in at 2000-3000 rpm lightly varying for 30 minutes. Break in oil interval i'm not too sure on, but then you can run whatever for 1000 miles then change to syn.
Don't do the supra forum deal. I'm not a fan of driving on it till you get the cam broken in.-->skip the suggestions after that.
I agree with Box. A nice gentle break in with let you go farther longer.
Don't cruise till you get 1000 miles on it after cam break in. Go 70, back off to 60, give generous throttle to 70, then ease off, etc.

In the end everything's gonna break in OK, and then you are gonna give me a ride.

[mandrek]

I read none of that, but I did read Gulf Shores, and if thats the case, I'm coming to hang at the beach! (I'll read and give you a serious answer in a sec.)

well, not THAT gulf shores.. the the gulf coast.. i guess is what i should have put.. naw ill be working in mobile and tillmans corner, and (for the time being) living in theodore

[RobbMeeX]

Oh ****, yeah going into town, you'll pass my shop (Bishop Auto). Gulf coast is way more boring than Gulf Shores.
You'll be nervous cranking it, but it'll turn out just fine.

[delusionz]

no mention of running without coolant to set the gaskets in?

[Special_Edy]

If you disconnect the vacuum line for the idle up actuator the actuator will open the throttle and the idle will go to 2000-2400 rpms. On the 5sfe it is the line closest to the front of the car out of the 4 vacuum lines on top of the Throttle Body, also the only one that goes towards the drivers side instead of the passenger side. Im not sure if the 7A-FE is exactly the same but you get the idea.
The old rule of thumb is to run it at around 2,000 rpm for about 20 minutes to seat the cam and lifters

I guess the you should just try to relax about it, as long as you you are careful and baby it for the first couple hundred miles it will be perfectly fine

[mandrek]

1. just adjust your mix and run more water (50/50?)
Break in: When I built my VW type IV motor, I broke it in on break in oil, but it doesn't have a cat. Just read next sentence, I'd go ahead and use the break in unless you think you may have an oil leak (you don't) Just use the break in oil.
Vary the RPM's. The TIV was broken in at 2000-3000 rpm lightly varying for 30 minutes. Break in oil interval i'm not too sure on, but then you can run whatever for 1000 miles then change to syn.
Don't do the supra forum deal. I'm not a fan of driving on it till you get the cam broken in.-->skip the suggestions after that.
I agree with Box. A nice gentle break in with let you go farther longer.
Don't cruise till you get 1000 miles on it after cam break in. Go 70, back off to 60, give generous throttle to 70, then ease off, etc.

In the end everything's gonna break in OK, and then you are gonna give me a ride.

well the 50/50 mix is fine for light winters.. like in the Carolinas and lower VA, 70(anti-freeze)/30(water) for areas in cold winters. (like PA and up)

my debate on what to use is this: 100% water+ Royal Purple's Ice additive. and run that all spring,summer, fall wile in mobile area, and then drain and do an antifreeze mix for winter, OR do a 70(water)/30(antifreeze)+RP Ice mix for constant use.

i have a godspeed duel-row aluminum rad, and a 180* T-stat.. the coolant mix is my last piece in the cooling puzzle to figure out.. remember.. auto-x, and turbo set-up in less than a year.. i am leaning to the 70/30+RP Ice mixture.

[mandrek]

If you disconnect the vacuum line for the idle up actuator the actuator will open the throttle and the idle will go to 2000-2400 rpms. On the 5sfe it is the line closest to the front of the car out of the 4 vacuum lines on top of the Throttle Body, also the only one that goes towards the drivers side instead of the passenger side. Im not sure if the 7A-FE is exactly the same but you get the idea.
The old rule of thumb is to run it at around 2,000 rpm for about 20 minutes to seat the cam and lifters

I guess the you should just try to relax about it, as long as you you are careful and baby it for the first couple hundred miles it will be perfectly fine

Yeah!!! i was thinking about disconnecting one of the vacuum lines that should allow the idle to fluctuate by a few hundred RPM's. should let the first start and warm up do well to not hold the RPM's at just one lvl. and though the piston rings are new, and the valves (and seats) have been re-cut, that cams and everything else has stayed the same.. so i am not too concerned with seating the cams.. my biggest concern is the rings, why i am leaning more twords a motoman method break-in. i want/need the rings to seat as best as possible since the motor will be seeing boost as soon as i can get the rest of the turbo set-up done (about a year, less if i can afford it).

[Smaay]

as for coolant, ONLY use Toyota red. mix it with distilled water. not purified, it must be distilled. it don't have to be 50/50 perfectly. 60/40 will work just fine, or anything between.

as for break in. i have been building engine for over 10 years now and i do it just about the same way as the first quote. just let it idle for about 20 minutes to let the coolant flow through the system. then i go out and in 2nd gear, hammer it up to about 4000-4500, then engine brake down to about 2000. then do it again. i do this about 10-15 times. and that about all it needs.

as for oil, ill do all this break in with simple 10W/30 oil from costco. Ill run this oil for about 400 miles, then ill change it. again using the same oil and a new Toyota filter. DO NOT UES FRAM FILTERS!!!!!!! Ill change the oil again after about 1000 miles. after that its every 3000-3500 miles. Toyota filters and plain oil for me. i dont spend the extra on synthetic.

[mandrek]

as for coolant, ONLY use Toyota red. mix it with distilled water. not purified, it must be distilled. it don't have to be 50/50 perfectly. 60/40 will work just fine, or anything between.

as for break in. i have been building engine for over 10 years now and i do it just about the same way as the first quote. just let it idle for about 20 minutes to let the coolant flow through the system. then i go out and in 2nd gear, hammer it up to about 4000-4500, then engine brake down to about 2000. then do it again. i do this about 10-15 times. and that about all it needs.

as for oil, ill do all this break in with simple 10W/30 oil from costco. Ill run this oil for about 400 miles, then ill change it. again using the same oil and a new Toyota filter. DO NOT UES FRAM FILTERS!!!!!!! Ill change the oil again after about 1000 miles. after that its every 3000-3500 miles. Toyota filters and plain oil for me. i dont spend the extra on synthetic.

hmm. thank you for chiming in smaay... i was hoping that you would..
i got 10 gal of distilled water ready and waiting.
question on the coolant: i am not familiar with the Toyota RED..after doing a quick search i see that it is a 100% anti-freeze , so will need the water, and that it is supposed to be great on the parts and keep from gunking up, and has great rust inhibitors. but other than that any other reasons to go with the Toyota RED over other brands? also.. i do not have a local Toyota dealer (out in the stix of western MD) and does not look like lithiatoyota.com or toyotapartszone.com has it as available to order.. happen to know where i could order it from?

and as to the mix... i know that you live in hot area of the country. still stick with a 50/50 mix? and not a 70(water)/30(anti-freeze) mix?


and thank you for supporting what i have been leaning to on the break-in. now this is on an auto, so i will be just puting it in 2nd and be doing pulls up and down a hill next to my house (has a good grade to it)

question though, when should i start to take it to red line? or any advice on doing that break in on an auto? (95 celica ST auto) ... thank you
nick

oh and don't use fram filters cuz they don't have anti-drainbacks? or crappy filer media?

[Micky_lovescelic...]

ok, wrapping up the rebuild of my lil'7AFE and have a few questions that i would like to ask all of you...more of opinions and advice than absolute "help" but just a few things that i would like answered before i finish putting he back together and start her up...

i am going w/ Royal Purple for just about everything... unfortunately they do not have an antifreeze.. so my first question pertains to that.

1: what coolant mixture and brand anti-freeze do any of you raced/turbo'ed 7AFE peeps use? -i will be in the south (gulf shore area) for the foreseeable future, and was looking at a 70-distilled water/30-anti-freeze + Royal Purple "ice" additive.
but have also looked into the Idea of 100% distilled water+the "ice".. i understand that the the 'anti-freeze also serves as a rust inhibitor, and lubricant for the water pump. but there is also the fact that no other liquid conducts heat better than water.

First start/Engine Break-in:
this is what i plan on doing, and is a combination of all of the information that i have gathered on breaking in a rebuilt motor. also assuming that everything is hooked up, and all fluids are filled.

1)Start with some cheap oil and a good filter.
2)Prime the oil pump: from my understanding, unplug the injector clips and power to the dizzy, and have the motor turn over a few times (aprox 15-20 sec), then re-install clips and power to the dizzy.
3)Start the car, (again assuming that all is well) and let the motor warm up for approx 20-30 min. might leave one of the vac lines unattached to get the RPM's to fluctuate and flutter. as well as use this time to burp the coolant, check for leaks, ensure that all electrical's are hooked up correctly.
4)Turn off the car and drain the oil compleatly.. (and dumped into container for recycle center-not to be reused by me) as well as removal of the filter.
5)Install new filter, and fill with Royal Purple Break-in fluid. use this to check once more for leeks and other fluid lvls'.

6)---now here is where i am not sure yet i have been reading ALLOT on how to break-in, and seat the the rings..

i have read, and re-read motoman's meathod..

and here are a few other variations of that method that i have pulled from around the net and a chunk from a supra forum.

On an 85 celica GTS: break-in method,
(this guy claims to have been re-building engines for over 10 years.)

I run between 1500-2000 rpms for 20 mins in the bay to break in the cam and then I go out and do 10 pulls in 2nd up to 4K then engine break down to 2K. Then i do this once everyday for 3 days after the car has completly cooled. This seats the rings solid.

Other method by guy on celicasupra.com

Break-in consensus on list as I remember it.
Use magnetic oil plug and/or flex magnet on oil filter.
Use regular oil (no synthetic)
Idle engine till it gets to operating temperature.
Do a series of many runs (20 or more) accelerating at wot and decelerating at idle. (Let engine do all braking.) (Up a hill for acceleration and downhill for braking is probably better since engine is under full load a longer time.) Keep engine under 5Krpm for first few runs.
Idle for a few minutes at end of break-in so magnets can collect metal particles
Change oil and filter immediately after break-in (50 miles or less, fewest miles is best) and clean magnetic plug.
Change oil again (and clean plug) at 500 miles and switch to syn oil.

and a few more from another supra forum.

I've been seeing this thread, wanting to post a response. since no one had touched it for a long time, and in fear of the flames, I'd held my tongue.. (ok, my keyboard)

If you look at the procedures for rotax ultralights, the basic idea is that of progressive loading periods followed by cool-downs.

But some of the Supra Gurus have distilled it down to this procedure..
First, dry crank the car for 15 seconds (disconnect coil packs and igniters)

Then, start the car, but do not let it idle - run it at about 1700-2000 rpm for about 30 seconds - long enough to know that there are no major leaks. For this, I had my kid with his foot on the throttle, watching the revs whils I looked with a flashlight all over and under the engine bay.

Then drive around for about 5 minutes, normally with the exception of not letting it idle. Again, quickly check for leaks.

Go somewhere where you have a lot of room to work (isolated highway) and go on progressive loads at 20, 30 40% throttle and in 10% increments all the way to 100%, all in 6th gear, for 15-30 seconds. Between each load cycle, you cruise at about 1700-2000 rpm for 5 minutes to cool things down. Towards the end, you will be going very, very fast.

This procedure heats/cools everything in progressive cycles, taking care of both sealing the rings and the metallic grain structure of the pistons.

Then change the oil and you are done.

I broke in my (oft maligned) new short block, Andi B broke in his new Z-06 (and ended up with more HP that most other Z-06's, but who's to tell what the cause was)

Credit goes to Lance W.

Cheers
Rich B 95 BPU 6-spd

Just wanted to write a quick follow-up on my break-in experience. I decided to return everything to stock before starting the new motor. Put the stock turbos, fuel, MAF, and stock ECU back in there. It fired up fine and ran great except for a small coolant leak on the firewall. After that was fixed, car was warmed up for 20 minutes and moderately flogged for 70 miles. I kept it under 5000-5500 rpm for the first couple hundred miles, but started boosting it to 10-11psi within 50 miles of break-in. Changed the oil at 70 miles, then again at 330 miles. Now it's got around 1200 city and highway miles on it, and I'm about to change it again. Engine sounds smooth and wonderful, no problems thus far. I'll post another follow-up as soon as a compression check is done. After another couple thousand miles are on the car, I'm going to switch over the big turbos/fuel/AEM and get it tuned correctly. Till then, it's a fun-ass BPU monster

I just found this thread, and I've got to throw in my $0.02.
When I built my first engine, many moons ago, I did the same search about breakin procedures. I searched the internet, consulted my factory manual, read anything I could find until I spoke to the head machinist where I worked. He was an older guy who was VERY intelligent, and didn't like doing things "by the book" just because it was "the book".
He told me to fire it up, break in the cam (if it was a pushrod flat-tappet style engine), then drive it like I stole it and change the oil within a week. Having been a cam grinder now, I agree with him as far as breaking the cam in goes, but that doesn't really apply to most import engines.
So, every engine I've ever built, I've started it up, got it up to operating temp, and beat the $HIT out of it!!! I've been doing this for almost ten years now, and it hasn't failed me once! Every engine I've ever built has been great, and passed with flying colours at the local emissions centers.
Reading what Motoman has to say makes me happy . He says to do what I've always done, and gave good reasons as to why.

so my last question is: how have/would you all do it?

I can tell you that it depends, on the specific engine I am building and that engines intended usage.
It also depends on the engine-builder, if you got everything balenced, what you did, how tight or loose you went
on engine spec's / tolorences and clearences.

Almost everything motorsport is measured to last at peak operations for X amount of hours.
You can also calculate it out to aprox milage or kilometers.

Road cars generally speaking :

1. It is very important you allow the engine to warm up correctly on a flat surface, non of this drive way tilted kilt sort of stuff.
Remember, Coolent tempreture is not the same as your oil tempreture. You need to ensure that oil is circulating thru the system
and allow the car to run thru the normal warm up. Once the engine is warmed up, do a quick inspection, look around check for any
leaks and fluid check. Inspect and confirm that the idle holds after small basic throttle imputs, which is not to say you should crack
the throttle.

You can also use a small ultra light weight oil, as like a pre-lube so that you aren't running the cylinders totally dry or should of
hopefully had some assembly lubricant. <- Not required after the first start.

2. For 500 ~ 1,500 you will want smooth engine operation, do not exceed 75% of your maximum engine-speed,

3. From 500 ~ 1,500 until you achieve about 2,500-3,500 miles you want to work the power-band but avoid maximum engine-speeds avoid using 85% of
your maximum ( usable powerband ) until about 4,000rpm. Remember operating the engine-beyond the usable power-band is pointless, you don't go faster
and strain the engine.

Around 2,500 ~ 3,000 I recommend you change the oil. Remember most race machinary is basically drained of oil and depending, the fluids as well.
Regardless of test, practice, and or race.

Beyond this, comes down to how well and how many provsions were taken into consideration prior and if you can operate with in the limits of your build.
Most exceed the vehicles limits, and this will reduce engine-life-span. A lot of the time people are simply un aware and when in the midst flat out you don't
really grasp the engine is beyond it's limit. It's not hard achieve high G forces etc

Good luck,
hope all goes as you'd
planned it to be.
Mick -