Superstrut Suspension, ST202 - ST205 suspention Options

[celi94]

In Europe we also have celica's with Superstrut Suspension.
Thats wy i'm sharing this information!


The ST205 GT-Four uses a system of front suspension design unique to Toyota. It moves away from the MacPherson strut used on all other Celicas and is much more complex. This system is used on the GT-Four, some Japanese spec Corollas and the higher spec Japanese fwd Celicas (SSII and SSIII). It was available in Europe on the Carina GTi and was an option on the ST202 (thanks Dirk for the info).

My understanding of the system is that the geometry does not give the same camber and castor changes during cornering that occur with MacPherson strut. Is it better? Well, it is different. There are reliability problems if maintenance isn't kept up, TTE had continual problems and I believe they swapped the rally cars back to MacPherson strut.

A brief description of MacPherson strut is in order. The Toyota system uses a lower A arm with rubber bushings front and rear. This has only one degree of motion (ie. it rotates on the bushings). At the outer point of the A arm is a balljoint which connects to the steering knuckle and allows for rotation (steering) and pivot (shock compression). The steering knuckle is rigidly bolted to the bottom of the strut. The whole strut turns when steering, twisting in the roller bearing in the top mount. Fairly simple and cheap, used by most manufacturers.

So what is Superstrut suspension? It is a hybrid between normal MacPherson strut and a multilink setup. One of the requirements of the design brief was that the system would fit existing suspension mount locations. Therefore the system can be fitted into export Celicas as well as the Japanese lower spec SSI! The late production cars even share the same subframe.

The photo below shows the lower part of the system. This consists of a front and rear lower arm, connected (by rodends) to a connector plate. The rear arm has a rubber bushing at the inner end (the only rubber bushing at the front except swaybar D-bushings), the front arm has a balljoint. This system allows the arms to pivot as the suspension turns.



The steering knuckle is quite different to that of the MacPherson strut cars. It bolts securely to the connector plate joining the lower arms (see photo below). The top end connects to the strut part way up using a balljoint (see red arrow in left picture and upper arrow in right picture below. The strut mounts to the body in the normal way, but the lower end is secured to the front lower arm using another pivoting arm visible at the right in the photo above. This arm is near vertical in the photos, it is actually about 150mm long and pivots at each end.



The photo of the assembled suspension below shows that the strut rotates minimally when steering ( the same amount as the front lower arm as it is rigidly connected). The steering knuckle moves instead. While the outboard strut moves rearwards slightly when the car turns in (turning left in the photo), it can be seen that the hub moves forward. But because of the strut movement the actual movement at the wheel is minimised.

The second photo shows the mounting points for the lower arms on the subframe.



All the info from: gtfour.supras.org.nz

[presure2]

good stuff man!!

[Mr_E]

Vote for sticky.

[G3D45]

Great write-up, but how to determine, is my ST202 with SSS or not... I'm not a mechanic (prob. LOL), but I wish to know. VIN doesn't tell anything...

[Kadett]

If you have 2piston Calipers in the front. Its SS Supension.

Other then that, look under the car. If your strut is shaped like this


Then you have SS

[Nibbe]

Is it impossible to change superstrut to MacPherson strut (normal one)? Or if its possible how much would it cost? I just cant get a tein adjustable kit because of the superstrut model costs 2300euros and i think its way too much considering that same kit without superstrut is something like 1200euros.

[doGGy]

Great write-up, but how to determine, is my ST202 with SSS or not... I'm not a mechanic (prob. LOL), but I wish to know. VIN doesn't tell anything...

Gedai - susuk vaira ir viska tu ten pamatysi O jei Superstrutas stovi - ant galiinio lango apacios eina lipdukas SuperStrut.

Sorry guys for our language But ussualy when superstrut is suplied on the GT the sticker on the rear glass is placed telling this. BTW - not too many GT in 94 came with the SS.

[Nibbe]

Gedai - susuk vaira ir viska tu ten pamatysi O jei Superstrutas stovi - ant galiinio lango apacios eina lipdukas SuperStrut.

Sorry guys for our language But ussualy when superstrut is suplied on the GT the sticker on the rear glass is placed telling this. BTW - not too many GT in 94 came with the SS.

Atleast ive got one of those 94's with SS. And it sucks BIG time!

[doGGy]

Is it impossible to change superstrut to MacPherson strut (normal one)? Or if its possible how much would it cost? I just cant get a tein adjustable kit because of the superstrut model costs 2300euros and i think its way too much considering that same kit without superstrut is something like 1200euros.

You will need to change Steering Gear, And whole suspension including lower arm from Mac, Struts, steering knuckle, basicly everything, including Brakes. Im pretty sure what lower subframe is the same as on the normal MAc equiped cars. Im planing to change my suspension to MAc pretty soon, cuz im tired of the SS problems already, and i only done like 200 miles with my SSIII....

[G3D45]

I compared mine suspension with this one and I don't see any differences. So I guess I'm SS and all the coming problems owner

[malpaso]

Great write-up, but how to determine, is my ST202 with SSS or not... I'm not a mechanic (prob. LOL), but I wish to know. VIN doesn't tell anything...

Gedai - susuk vaira ir viska tu ten pamatysi O jei Superstrutas stovi - ant galiinio lango apacios eina lipdukas SuperStrut.

Sorry guys for our language But ussualy when superstrut is suplied on the GT the sticker on the rear glass is placed telling this. BTW - not too many GT in 94 came with the SS.

yea...

[G3D45]

I don't have such stick Maybe it was only on the facelifted versions.

[doGGy]

yea...

Martin - we all know what you cheated intresting... from what year does ST came with the SS suspension and SSIII stickers on spoiler

[Nibbe]

Btw i dont really know much about that ssI II III thing. So if ive got 1994 gt with a ss suspension does it make my car one of those? You might be laughing for this question.

[Kadett]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Celica....281994-1999.29

[G3D45]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Celica....281994-1999.29

There is almost no info about SSS Celicas in Europe...

[doGGy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Celica....281994-1999.29

There is almost no info about SSS Celicas in Europe...

As long as i know and remeber (if i remeber corectly) i was reading somthere what SS in EU on GT's was availible as Special option witch you could chose when buying a celica from Dealers.

[Kadett]

Yup,

Sportpackage or Sport Undercarriage its called here in Holland. Came standard with ABS too.

[G3D45]

As long as i know and remeber (if i remeber corectly) i was reading somthere what SS in EU on GT's was availible as Special option witch you could chose when buying a celica from Dealers.

Rather interesting. I don't know any similar example in nowadays cars. Such important thing like suspension would be optional

[malpaso]

yea...

Martin - we all know what you cheated intresting... from what year does ST came with the SS suspension and SSIII stickers on spoiler

It's 96 Ultra Limited Malpaso's Edition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Celica....281994-1999.29

There is almost no info about SSS Celicas in Europe...

As long as i know and remeber (if i remeber corectly) i was reading somthere what SS in EU on GT's was availible as Special option witch you could chose when buying a celica from Dealers.

SSS are in EPC for Europe so they must be available (or was available)

[TomPoz]

My GT was 94 from Switzerland - with SSS.

[doGGy]

our biggest nightmare

[Edophus]

Superstrut can be expensive to maintain but a celica with superstrut in combo with a diff handles so much better than one without that its worth it if you can afford it, heck its worth it even if you cant afford it.

If you are wanting to change to coilovers, then take a look at importing a set of used TRD coilovers from the japanese yahoo auctions, sets come up quite often but you'll need to use a third party to import them for you as you cant buy from japan yahoo if your outside japan.

[Alan]

Hey guys hows it going does anyone have a problem with loweer arm? mine lossen alot even with thread lock does anyone have any info for this problem or has the same problem.

[playr158]

anyone have part numbers for the various pieces i know i'll need to replace most if not all the joints on mine

[Kadett]

Thats normal Mcpherson Struts. Not SS struts.

[Penkka]

As long as i know and remeber (if i remeber corectly) i was reading somthere what SS in EU on GT's was availible as Special option witch you could chose when buying a celica from Dealers.

Rather interesting. I don't know any similar example in nowadays cars. Such important thing like suspension would be optional

Superstrut is a great suspension type, in paper that is. But it never actually worked as well as it was planned. Toyotas world rally team actually used it in 2(!) rallies, and then went back to original Macpherson.
And the great cheat-Turbo in ST205 GT4

[soven]

The superstrut suspension feels heaps better than the macphearson on the celica. I know because I have owned both and driven both.

Once you replace the figure8s etc, it will last you quite a while.

[Penkka]

Superstrut with all the part numbers


Macpherson with all the part numbers

[lmac34]

Superstrut with all the part numbers


Macpherson with all the part numbers

Sorry for hijacking this post.

But

Can anyone tell me if the breaks from a GT4 st205 will fit on the Macpherson setup above,

[Edophus]

As long as i know and remeber (if i remeber corectly) i was reading somthere what SS in EU on GT's was availible as Special option witch you could chose when buying a celica from Dealers.

Rather interesting. I don't know any similar example in nowadays cars. Such important thing like suspension would be optional

Superstrut is a great suspension type, in paper that is. But it never actually worked as well as it was planned. Toyotas world rally team actually used it in 2(!) rallies, and then went back to original Macpherson.
And the great cheat-Turbo in ST205 GT4

yes because of reliability issues, rally situation being very different to a road type, that fact they tried to use it says enough, theres nothign to suggest it was inferior, just wasnt suited to rally situation which is pretty extreme.

as for number of cars using similar setups to superstrut you'd be amazed, its classed as a multilink suspension setup, and although many dont share the exact same design, the goal and result is the same, and you will continue to see more, under various different names, its really all the same thing, toyota were about 10 years ahead of the game

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jul 11, 2008 - 6:10 PM

[Kwanza26]

Sorry for hijacking this post.

But

Can anyone tell me if the breaks from a GT4 st205 will fit on the Macpherson setup above,

Not without modification. The way the caliper bolts up to the spindle is slightly different as well as the offsets of the rotor brackets.

[delusionz]

The first thing I noticed going from SS-I to SS-III is that I could gas it around corners in the wet aggressively without sliding, Impossible in the One.

I can't believe I got all this good stuff -- LSD, Superslut, 2pot brakes, 3S-GE, 16" Toyota alloys 215/50R16


I am so stoked, Hey Rusty I'll show u how a real Celi handles if you come up to Auckland

[Anabolik]

I bought a rack with auction!

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

I bought from japan

[Anabolik]

KYB we have not appreciated! Rapidly destroyed!

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

most of you were using inserts yes? and not the super special f street?

i wasnt keen to fnck around with inserts, spend the $$ and buy the top of the range, you get what u pay for
a few of my mates are using kyb in their gtfours and they cant rate them highly enough.

This post has been edited by Cuts_the_Pilot: Jul 29, 2008 - 5:47 PM

[paul_gt4]

without going and reading all the replies, my car with the previous owner removed the useless superstrut set up, go onto any gt4 forum and thats all you'll hear of the members there crying about (its failure and the cost of repair with genuine parts and look at the price of coilovers compared to any other car), its a curse and i'm glad its been removed on mines and fitted with a ST202 set up (Macpherson) including subframe, the initial plan was for set it up with a ST185 set up but the ST202 is supposively very similar with less fabrication. Anyone who i know who has done this has smiled from ear to ear with better handling and less failures and i think that TTE is agreeing with me or i'm agreeing with them more like as the TTE ST205 WRC had the similar Macpherson setup.

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

i duno about it being better handling man, compared to a shagged ss setup i would agree, but superstrut in its full working potential is a better strut type. Multi links in general are superior, just the extra cost and a bit of weight and complexity sometimes doesnt get outweighed by the benefits.

202/204 and 205 use all the same suspension attachment points so its simply a matter of swapping it over. That was a stipulation toyota put on the engineers when they designed the 6th gen.

what did you do for your stoppers? custom brackets for the calipers? did you sacrifice 10-15mm of rotor diameter like most do when they do a 185/202/204 to 205 brake conversion?

This post has been edited by Cuts_the_Pilot: Jul 29, 2008 - 10:09 PM

[Anabolik]

most of you were using inserts yes? and not the super special f street?

i wasnt keen to fnck around with inserts, spend the $$ and buy the top of the range, you get what u pay for
a few of my mates are using kyb in their gtfours and they cant rate them highly enough.

Google Translate
No, we do not use liners! We just sometimes they do restavriruem and harder!

[Rusty]

...Superslut...

lol

I am so stoked, Hey Rusty I'll show u how a real Celi handles if you come up to Auckland

I dont know, yours would feel more like a boat more than mine when are you going to put springs/coilovers in?

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

put in the kyb super special yesterday, and fnck me the difference is crazy.
words, noise, rapid movements, flatulance or anything else cannot explain how much better it handles, heaps smoother, better traction. Its such an epic improvement,
i reccommend.

[Rusty]

load some pics up Mr Cuts

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

[Rusty]

Wow that was quick

Very nice

[paul_gt4]

i duno about it being better handling man, compared to a shagged ss setup i would agree, but superstrut in its full working potential is a better strut type. Multi links in general are superior, just the extra cost and a bit of weight and complexity sometimes doesnt get outweighed by the benefits.

202/204 and 205 use all the same suspension attachment points so its simply a matter of swapping it over. That was a stipulation toyota put on the engineers when they designed the 6th gen.

what did you do for your stoppers? custom brackets for the calipers? did you sacrifice 10-15mm of rotor diameter like most do when they do a 185/202/204 to 205 brake conversion?

I'll have to get pics of the set up when i get the car back from getting the rebuild done, but i still have the same ST205 braking set up which will be binned in the near future for some 10pots, from driving my mates car with the same KYB set up as mines i notice that mines holds the corners better and doesn't understeer in comparison to my mates car, maybe because my car is alot lighter up front could be the difference but i'm glad i have the set up i have

[coneyre]

put in the kyb super special yesterday, and fnck me the difference is crazy.
words, noise, rapid movements, flatulance or anything else cannot explain how much better it handles, heaps smoother, better traction. Its such an epic improvement,
i reccommend.

Sounds good man, very interested. How much did they set you back? Have you got the part number or site where I can get a set?

[playr158]

without going and reading all the replies, my car with the previous owner removed the useless superstrut set up, go onto any gt4 forum and thats all you'll hear of the members there crying about (its failure and the cost of repair with genuine parts and look at the price of coilovers compared to any other car), its a curse and i'm glad its been removed on mines and fitted with a ST202 set up (Macpherson) including subframe, the initial plan was for set it up with a ST185 set up but the ST202 is supposively very similar with less fabrication. Anyone who i know who has done this has smiled from ear to ear with better handling and less failures and i think that TTE is agreeing with me or i'm agreeing with them more like as the TTE ST205 WRC had the similar Macpherson setup.

going by this post.

I'm assuming we can run Mcpherson suspension with the AWD system in our celicas?

[GEpower]

I love it that my new Celica has Superstrut. However it started knocking, it seems the figure 8 isn't OK. I'm not sure though, if it's the figure 8. But the figure 8 is looking rusty, while on the good side of the car the figure 8 is not rusty at al. (might even have been replaced already)

[97celiman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacPherson_strut

so i read this article....

does macpherson have a sort of stock "coilover"...they are just non adjuststable?

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

Coneyre I got them through a mate of mine who deals directly with a japanese workshop who gets them from the manufactuers. They were around $1900 AUD to my door about 6 months ago. Umm ill find a link for you.

Apparently a stipulation toyota put on the engineers is that they use the same pickup points. so in theory a macpherson strut setup should bolt straight up.


KYB WEBSITE

celiman, the macpherson strut is just like most modern suspension setups, with a shock inside a coil spring. So yeah its a kind of coilovers, but usually people use the term coilovers for aftermarket adjustable types.

This post has been edited by Cuts_the_Pilot: Dec 7, 2008 - 7:44 PM

[WALKER]

I think I was able to find the part numbers for the KYB Super Special for Street for ST205 from your link to the KYB website.

SST9002R (Front Right)
SST90002L (Front Left)
SST5123R (Rear Right)
SST5123L (Rear Left)

Can anyone confirm if those are correct?

This post has been edited by WALKER: Mar 17, 2009 - 11:22 AM

[yorkie]

I have a 94 Superstrut Celica and as you have explained it so well i now know the difference between regulaar celicas and my own which is an ST202, i struggle to find parts in the uk so if anyone has useful links it would be much apreciated. Im looking for the ball joints that are described in this post and the upper ball joint as well, failed mot on both sides of the car for suspension. Great piece of info though. Thanks.

In Europe we also have celica's with Superstrut Suspension.
Thats wy i'm sharing this information!


The ST205 GT-Four uses a system of front suspension design unique to Toyota. It moves away from the MacPherson strut used on all other Celicas and is much more complex. This system is used on the GT-Four, some Japanese spec Corollas and the higher spec Japanese fwd Celicas (SSII and SSIII). It was available in Europe on the Carina GTi and was an option on the ST202 (thanks Dirk for the info).

My understanding of the system is that the geometry does not give the same camber and castor changes during cornering that occur with MacPherson strut. Is it better? Well, it is different. There are reliability problems if maintenance isn't kept up, TTE had continual problems and I believe they swapped the rally cars back to MacPherson strut.

A brief description of MacPherson strut is in order. The Toyota system uses a lower A arm with rubber bushings front and rear. This has only one degree of motion (ie. it rotates on the bushings). At the outer point of the A arm is a balljoint which connects to the steering knuckle and allows for rotation (steering) and pivot (shock compression). The steering knuckle is rigidly bolted to the bottom of the strut. The whole strut turns when steering, twisting in the roller bearing in the top mount. Fairly simple and cheap, used by most manufacturers.

So what is Superstrut suspension? It is a hybrid between normal MacPherson strut and a multilink setup. One of the requirements of the design brief was that the system would fit existing suspension mount locations. Therefore the system can be fitted into export Celicas as well as the Japanese lower spec SSI! The late production cars even share the same subframe.

The photo below shows the lower part of the system. This consists of a front and rear lower arm, connected (by rodends) to a connector plate. The rear arm has a rubber bushing at the inner end (the only rubber bushing at the front except swaybar D-bushings), the front arm has a balljoint. This system allows the arms to pivot as the suspension turns.



The steering knuckle is quite different to that of the MacPherson strut cars. It bolts securely to the connector plate joining the lower arms (see photo below). The top end connects to the strut part way up using a balljoint (see red arrow in left picture and upper arrow in right picture below. The strut mounts to the body in the normal way, but the lower end is secured to the front lower arm using another pivoting arm visible at the right in the photo above. This arm is near vertical in the photos, it is actually about 150mm long and pivots at each end.



The photo of the assembled suspension below shows that the strut rotates minimally when steering ( the same amount as the front lower arm as it is rigidly connected). The steering knuckle moves instead. While the outboard strut moves rearwards slightly when the car turns in (turning left in the photo), it can be seen that the hub moves forward. But because of the strut movement the actual movement at the wheel is minimised.

The second photo shows the mounting points for the lower arms on the subframe.

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

assuming you mean the fig 6 and the upper ball joint (mounted on the strut)

you have 3 options. Toyota, Fensport, and there is some online toyota place that sell these parts cheaper then both of those others. Im pretty sure its uk based.
Since your in the uk you best bet is signing up to www.gt4oc.net and becomming a member, you get discounts and there is many knowledgeable people there...and their reasonably local.

[Nial]

I dont see the problem with superstrut suspension......although expensive to replace it lasts around 60,000 miles...not many have a car for that many miles....

Try cheap toyota parts or TCB (toyota celica breakers) both for new parts

Susperstrut is fine and works well.

[kaz_st202]

hi, having a huge problem. need to know if my car is superstrut or not. as the toyota dealers gave me false information saying that only gt4's have superstrut.

i have a 1995 celica gt st202 ssIII , i think its ssIII. superstrut or not?

kaz

[Ronan]

hi, having a huge problem. need to know if my car is superstrut or not. as the toyota dealers gave me false information saying that only gt4's have superstrut.

i have a 1995 celica gt st202 ssIII , i think its ssIII. superstrut or not?

kaz

SS-III are super strut yes. Has the Beams engine yes? If not its not a SS-III.

An easy way to see if you have super strut is to simply look at your front shocks.

These are SS:


These are what my SS TRD coilover look like:


On non super strut both the front and back shocks will look like the rears above, the one on the bottom.

[Tech-Nics]

I head there is a difference in the suspension between the ST & GT version. I heard the GT has a slightly better suspension. Yes?

[95CelicaST]

I head there is a difference in the suspension between the ST & GT version. I heard the GT has a slightly better suspension. Yes?

No.

There is, however, a difference between factory option sport suspension that I believe came factory on the GT-S models. The struts are sealed up front, so you can't replace the shock like you can in the standard strut setups.

[delusionz]

SS-III are super strut yes. Has the Beams engine yes? If not its not a SS-III.

Beams doesn't mean anything except its definitely not an SS-I.

SS-III in '96 - '97 have gen3 3s-ge just the same as SS-II

Both the SS-II and SS-III got the Beams 3s-ge in 1998 and '99

It's the Superstrut, standard F+R strutbraces & All high performance options + bodykit options included as standard that sets it apart from SS-II

It just sucks that VVT-i wasn't available in 1996, and the high spoiler wasn't available for neither the SS-III nor the GT-Four.

[6gtfour]

I'm sort of concerned since I've seen posts in this thread that suggest that cars equipped with Super Strut front suspensions can be readily reverted to Mc Pherson type front struts eliminating costly repair work.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<D E A D.......W R O N G>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

6th gen celicas equipped with superstrut front suspension DO NOT share similar parts with mc pherson strut equipped celicas in the following areas. In other words ALL OF THE FOLLOWING MUST BE CHANGED if you are going from super strut to mc pherson and vise versa
1. cradle arms
2. shock and spring combo
3. spindles
4. steering ends

I don't know how no one really emphasized it but there is not one single interchangeable part on the front suspension except maybe the brakes. IT MUST ALL BE CHANGED to do a conversion from one type to the next.
I have never done one myself but i have heard that the ST185 spindle accepts the ST205 brake calipers and rotors without any modification. If this is indeed so then it makes the conversion less stressful but by no means easy.
dollar for dollar I cannot imagine how this conversion is cheaper than replacing worn "figure 8" bushings or worn superstrut dampers.
Currently I'm working on linking with a supplier who may be able to supply a top quality coilover suspension for superstrut equipped cars. Don't hold your breath though. I have a feeling it's another dead end lol.

[Rusty]

of course you'd need to change all those things

paul GT4 has a Mcpherson suspension in his GT4

This post has been edited by Rusty: Sep 16, 2009 - 1:16 AM

[BonzaiCelica]

alright guys so if you were to put up a celica with suspension mods as follows:

-Tien Full Coilovers for Macpherson Strut System USDM Celicas
-Polyurethane Front and Rear Suspension Bushings
- C-One Lower Arm Ball Joints
-Front and Rear 3 point strut Bars
- C-One rear trunk bar
-Falken Azenis RT-615 tires

vs

An Integra Type R. with all the same suspension mods, same tires, both cars weigh the same and have same percentage of weight distribution from front to rear and would also have aftermarket coilovers installed as well. which one would handle better

Now being that usdm celicas have mcpherson suspension and type r integra's have doulbe wishbone suspension. now from my understanding from this reading http://www.team-integra.net/sections/artic...p?ArticleID=526 this is what I got from the advantage that doulbe wishbone has :

the best handling production cars have used MacPherson Struts. All that having MacPherson Struts means is that you will have to spend a little more time planning your suspension upgrades if you want the best possible handling from your car (and you will end up sacrificing a few more things than you would with a Double Wishbone suspension, like tires - you can dial in the amount of negative camber you want in a MacPherson Strut, but you will end up using tires faster). Because of the simplicity of the MacPherson Strut design, it is sometimes easier to modify the suspension to fit your exact needs than it is with a Double Wishbone suspension. Also, with MacPherson Struts you will need to be more aware of your driving techniques (which to me is actually an asset for someone just starting to race, and even for some experienced drivers, but that all depends on your point of view).

any other inputs on this. superstrut vs double wishbone. why did 7th gen celica's come with double wishbone suspension in the rear and mcpherson in the front, same goes with acura rsx? less inexpensive??

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Mar 10, 2010 - 1:40 AM

[Euphoria]

It would be very close, it would be more upto the driver and if both had a limited slip diff or not.

Macpherson strut is always looked down upon but it is very good system, some of the best handling cars in the world use it in front and back such as Lancia Delta, WRX, Porshe 911 and Clio 172, on the road it wont be noticed which one is wishbone and macpherson strut.

and Yes the 7th gen probably still uses macpherson at the front as its cheaper and still works fairly effectively, I know my dads clio has macpherson at the front and dependent beam axel at the rear it seems, which is pretty outdated but still works brilliantly and on a track to a modded clio there isn't much that can go aswell around corners.

[BonzaiCelica]

yes that is that the integra type r and ss-III celica both have helical lsd. alright then thx for the reply. so double wishbone might be like an overall 10% more efficient than mcpherson suspension system??

[Rusty]

^^ unless you have a SS-II 7gen celica +Z package (has superstrut) then you have superstrut in the front and double wishbone in the back.

also is there a diffrence between your ST204 and our ST202 tein coilovers?

I agree with Euphoria, it would be up to the drivers.

This post has been edited by Rusty: Mar 11, 2010 - 1:30 AM

[BonzaiCelica]

yes ss-II 7th gen celicas do have double wishbone in the rear and superstrut in the front. Double wishbone would never be accessible on the 6th gen celica right, how about on the 7afe ST celica, the engine is pretty small right?

only difference in the tein coilover set between the ST204 vs ST202 is the front superstrut suspension right??

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Mar 11, 2010 - 12:28 AM

[Edophus]

the best thing about superstrut, and what is missed from every conversation about it, is that its an offset steering axis design, in a front driver this is such a huge benefit, as it gets rid of torque steer, reduces scrub radius and so on, generally gets round the problems that a mac strut design brings, this brings big advantages on tarmac as you can get the power down exiting corners much earlier, it even helps just launching because it gets rid of torque steer and wheel hop, meaning your tyre is just gripping rather than scrabbling around.

[BonzaiCelica]

oh really hmm now I kind of wish I had on my celica oh well...

[Edophus]

oh really hmm now I kind of wish I had on my celica oh well...

yeah its a really beautifull system, for sure ford and renault have offset steering axis designs aswell now in the new focus rs (300bhp) and megane rs (260bhp) we have in the uk, both of which put there power down really really well for front drivers, but both are nowhere near the complexity of superstrut, as it does so much more than just sorting out the steering axis, the geometry is quite mind boggling but it really works, i guess this complexity is superstruts downfall aswell as it brings a lot of expense to the design, although i am very confused as to why there are no aftermarket replacements around for these parts, there is a huge market for it i reckon if someone could get the costs down. Rumour suggests it was someone at TTE that designed the superstrut, so its roots are in motorsport, but its no real advantage on gravel hence why the rally cars stopped using it. generally i see a lot of people poo pooing it but its obvious they have absolutly no idea what it is!

[Penkka]

oh really hmm now I kind of wish I had on my celica oh well...

Rumour suggests it was someone at TTE that designed the superstrut, so its roots are in motorsport, but its no real advantage on gravel hence why the rally cars stopped using it. generally i see a lot of people poo pooing it but its obvious they have absolutly no idea what it is!

I guess someone had done coke on the toyota and then designed the superstrut. If it gave advantage on the tarmac but not on gravel, there wuoldnt been a reason to change it. But it was too fragile, as many have noticed later, so TTE decided not to use it..

[Edophus]

oh really hmm now I kind of wish I had on my celica oh well...

Rumour suggests it was someone at TTE that designed the superstrut, so its roots are in motorsport, but its no real advantage on gravel hence why the rally cars stopped using it. generally i see a lot of people poo pooing it but its obvious they have absolutly no idea what it is!

I guess someone had done coke on the toyota and then designed the superstrut. If it gave advantage on the tarmac but not on gravel, there wuoldnt been a reason to change it. But it was too fragile, as many have noticed later, so TTE decided not to use it..

you misenterprit, it may have given some speed advantage on gravel i dont know, the fact is rally cars run on a variety of surfaces including tarmac, maybe it gained time here and lost it there for whatever reason, its all very complicated, but as i understand it the advantages were outweighed by the wear issues because service times etc are important in rallying, i do not know the details though. regardless it shouldnt be seen as a reason not to use it because in some scenarios it has big advantages.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Mar 12, 2010 - 9:05 AM

[BonzaiCelica]

kinda bummed out that we don't have superstrut suspension on usdm celica's over here. And im even more bummed out that our celica didnt come with the fancy double wishbone suspension that civics and integra's came with.....

[delusionz]

Dredging an old topic here, most of you guys are right on the money especially Edophus.

From a driver experience standpoint, I stand by superstrut.

I'm not entirely sure how much the LSD is responsible for this and how much can be credited to the Superstrut but lets just say I could be pinging off the 7000 limiter of the SS-III around a negative cambered 90 degree corner in either 1st or 2nd gears with my foot flat and not once feel like the car is about to lose traction or get out of control.

The underpowered SS-I can't do this, not even the SS-II and I've tried both. I've even tried with lowered versions of these cars, still they go straight off the road.

However there IS a limit to this endless grip effect which comes into play if you've done anything to add a few extra HP to the already potent 3S-GE motor.

Now don't get me started on the GT-Four it's a very different kettle of fish to the SS-III in terms of handling, a whole new ball game.

[Rusty]

might have more to do with the lsd??

could be good to test out on a one of the many trackday's this year.

SS-II vs SS-III (beams if we can find one) and GT4 vs GT-Four


I think it could be quite interesting

[Euphoria]

Yeah LSD has a massive difference for putting power down in corners, especially in the lower gears.

Also tyres have a MASSIVE difference, some of the cars could of had average tyres and some could of had awsome tyres.

Although I only have 100kw to put down but with my recent tyres its definitely possible to be flat in 2nd gear around corner without traction issues, 1st gear ofc struggles but its still good grip, with my other tyres I would of been off the road.

[BonzaiCelica]

would it of been possible for toyota to put double wishbone an all 6th gen celica except for the GT-4's? I kinda envy the fact that civic and integras have double wishbone and we dont. Shoot stupid toyota still didnt decide to put double wishbone on the 7th gen as well.

would it of been a convenient thing for toyota to put superstrut on the rear suspension, or double wishbone on the rear would of been a better choice for the 6th gen's

[Edophus]

would it of been possible for toyota to put double wishbone an all 6th gen celica except for the GT-4's? I kinda envy the fact that civic and integras have double wishbone and we dont. Shoot stupid toyota still didnt decide to put double wishbone on the 7th gen as well.

would it of been a convenient thing for toyota to put superstrut on the rear suspension, or double wishbone on the rear would of been a better choice for the 6th gen's

superstrut is essentially double wishbone in effect, i dont think the fact that the gen 6 is just a trailing arm at the rear is to much of a problem really it will have more bearing on tyre wear than much else i would think, it still has toe control etc through the bushes so isnt that crude, also this is why i'd never poly bush the rear end, a gen 7 with superstrut has the equivelant of double wishbone all round . For superstrut on the rear i dont really see much benefit because the biggest benefits of superstrut come from things like the reduced scrub radius, although it would give better camber control. For what its worth i much prefered the front end on my ss3 with superstrut to the honda's i've driven, the hondas didnt feel as tight and solid as the celica did, the honda maybe felt a bit more nimble in the slow stuff, but the celica was sooooo stable through the high speed stuff, both felt different but one wasnt better than the other.

never one to miss an oppertunity heres a couple pics that illustrate how composed a superstrut car is in the corners, first is behind a teg who was holding me up for a few laps, similar tyres but unsure of the rest of there setup but i could have pushed up the inside of a him, but we were not allowed to overtake except for the straights , the celica looks a bit more composed than the teg here, obviously different setups etc and drivers make it a loose comparison at best but shows there really isnt all that much between them. The second pic just shows how happy the back end was to sit just out a little, the front end had immense levels of grip, zero understeer and just a nice angle with the rear drifting just a little.




This post has been edited by Edophus: Mar 19, 2010 - 8:32 AM

[delusionz]

Very good illustration there, and a Celica with regular MacPherson would definitely not have been able to hold that apex as well as you have and be forced to decelerate and follow you on the outside.

On a side note, SS-III has different parts in the rear suspension setup to the regular SS-II, USDM GT, etc.

Btw Edophus aren't you from Australia? How did you get a real SS-III there? Since importing cars is a PITA there, wouldn't it be more logical to import a GT4 instead?? 98 SS-III holds a higher value than the 96 GT-Four.


EDIT: I just noticed someone said the SS-III has Helical LSD. It does NOT! No Celica comes factory with a Helical LSD, the closest is the ST205 GT4 which has a TORSEN rear diff.

All Superstrut equipped FWD Celica models also come equipped with Viscous LSD! And for that matter so does the Superstrut equipped GT-Apex, GT-Z, BZ-R Toyota Levin/Trueno models.

Unless equipped with the _AFTERMARKET_ TRD Helical LSD, you do not have it from factory.

Why is this? Because when a Helical LSD fails, the entire insides shatter and the car becomes undrivable either resulting in 1WD or a complete lockup of the wheels which cant rotate at all. Very dangerous to have happen to you while driving, and if you survive it's also very expensive to replace.

On the flipside, when a Viscous LSD fails, the diff simply acts like a regular open diff and the car can still be driven out the rest of it's lifetime.

The FWD Celica was never intended to be the flagship sports car for Toyota so the production cost and final showroom price could not be justified.

This post has been edited by delusionz: Mar 19, 2010 - 3:44 PM

[Rusty]

^ nope hes in UK, or there abouts (theres another in aussie with a similar name to him)

as far as I can see, they(SS-II & SS-III) have the same parts in there rear (if they don't please show me )

I dont really want to into the whole lsd discussion again

and I stand by my previous statment


oh and Edophus, we demand more pictures

[Edophus]

Uk for me, my ss3 was already in the country, i like the st205 but it doesnt interest me so much, it felt quite heavy and planted, the ss3 was very lively and sharp, and it was easy to drive at 100% and i wasnt worried about pushing it too hard or things going wrong so it made a lot of sense to me the lack of 4wd was never an issue as i never ran out of grip and the car was faster than a gt4 on track, less to worry about and so on, not saying its better in any way, just rather it suited my needs and pocket better.

see here for lsd questions
http://trdparts.jp/english/parts_lsd_mechanical.html

[Rusty]

you mean this part?

Includes helycal L.S.D. model

[Edophus]

you mean this part?

Includes helycal L.S.D. model

yeah on superstrut models was an e56 gearbox with viscous lsd up to august 95, then it became an s54 gearbox with helical lsd.

[BonzaiCelica]

hmm good stuff edophus! the only way to get my hands on a Superstrut suspension would be off an engine swap that came with the whole front clip! although most places never sell you the front brakes or the suspension, why is that?

what are the available superstrut coilover kits for the celica? tein i know for a fact they make them, http://www.nengun.com/tein/super-street omg why SO much!!!

and then I found these http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/performanc...nsion/Coilovers


This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Nov 26, 2013 - 12:26 AM

[Rusty]

Stickies are your friend

[Euphoria]

hmm good stuff edophus! the only way to get my hands on a Superstrut suspension would be off an engine swap that came with the whole front clip! although most places never sell you the front brakes or the suspension, why is that?

what are the available superstrut coilover kits for the celica? tein i know for a fact they make them, http://www.nengun.com/tein/super-street omg why SO much!!!

J-Speed coilovers kits for the ST202 and ST205 what the hell. and i thought teins were alot!! http://www.rhdjapan.com/j-speed-type-h-coi...per-strut-56463

and then I found these http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/performanc...nsion/Coilovers

how about C-One and JIC superstrut kits, dont make them?

I know the rest of the guys are saying how great superstrut is and im sure it is, but I think an LSD would be a bigger improvement, if you want the best out of your ST put an LSD in it along with an engine swap converting macpherson to super strut would be pain and not to mention getting the rear would be very difficult.

coilovers, sway bars, sticky tyres and an LSD would give most front wheel drive hondas a good run

[delusionz]

you mean this part?

Includes helycal L.S.D. model

Interesting but dubious about that one.

Except below model 93.10-99.9 3S-FE, 3S-GE Includes helycal L.S.D. model


Super strut suspension model
equipped with viscous L.S.D. 93.10-95.8 3S-GE 41301-SW211 F Discontinued For vehicle with viscous L.S.D.

[Rusty]

Except below model 93.10-99.9 3S-FE, 3S-GE Includes helycal L.S.D. model

this refers to the S54 group so can be both McPhearson strut (found in all models SS-I & SS-II) and superstrut (refers to the SS-III when it came into production, not the SS-II super strut)

Super strut suspension model
equipped with viscous L.S.D. 93.10-95.8 3S-GE 41301-SW211 F Discontinued For vehicle with viscous L.S.D.

refers to the SS-II superstrut ('93- '95 only) equiped with the E56-04C

This post has been edited by Rusty: Jun 23, 2011 - 7:18 PM

[Euphoria]

is super strut even in the rear?

rear suspension that looks pretty identical to the macpherson in an st204!

This post has been edited by Euphoria: Mar 21, 2010 - 11:28 PM

[delusionz]

The absorber assys have different part numbers. Possibly some stiffer shocks or springs?

[Euphoria]

Yeah Id say almost definitely stiffer springs/shocks, so ST204's wouldn't be THAT hard to convert to super strut by picking up a beams half cut.

[Edophus]

hmm good stuff edophus! the only way to get my hands on a Superstrut suspension would be off an engine swap that came with the whole front clip! although most places never sell you the front brakes or the suspension, why is that?

what are the available superstrut coilover kits for the celica? tein i know for a fact they make them, http://www.nengun.com/tein/super-street omg why SO much!!!

J-Speed coilovers kits for the ST202 and ST205 what the hell. and i thought teins were alot!! http://www.rhdjapan.com/j-speed-type-h-coi...per-strut-56463

and then I found these http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/performanc...nsion/Coilovers

how about C-One and JIC superstrut kits, dont make them?

i think they dont sell you the struts and brakes because i think those parts will sell fairly well seperate, not really sure though. For coilovers i only used the TRD coilovers, there shortened and use KYB inserts so very tough and oem quality. I imported them from japan auctions, quite expensive, but i trust TRD stuff, not sure about other brands. If i can get superstrut fitted to my gen 5 then i will hopefully go with custom shocks, theres really no different between the macstrut/superstrut in terms of fitting up custom coillovers so thats an option, it will cost me about the same as importing another set of trd coilovers but will give me both rebound and bound adjustement. for example the TRD coilovers for both superstrut/mac strut use the same shocks, with same overall body length and stroke length, and use the same springs.

delusionz i can see your not convinced about the helical lsd but they did come with the helica after 95, i sold my ss3 gearbox and its since been opened and confirmed as having the helical diff, also the helical diff that comes in the later mk3 mr2, or spyder as its called some places is the same diff and can be retrofitted into s54 gearboxes as long as you use the bearings from the s54.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Mar 27, 2010 - 4:55 PM

[BonzaiCelica]

pointless post also to the one below me

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Sep 26, 2013 - 11:25 PM

[WALKER]

do they have polyurethane bushings for the superstrut suspension.

Yes there is a guy in Poland that sells them on Ebay.

[BonzaiCelica]

ya man those are for the rear suspension, it clearly says it in the heading.

So the main problem with Superstrut suspension is the tendency for the bushing to wear out quickly. Is that why they are high maintenance suspension?

[WALKER]

ya man those are for the rear suspension, it clearly says it in the heading.

So the main problem with Superstrut suspension is the tendency for the bushing to wear out quickly. Is that why they are high maintenance suspension?

Oh ya, I was rushing when I posted that. I thought he had a set for the fronts at one time though. I don't see them on there now.

[Edophus]

do they have polyurethane bushings for the superstrut suspension.

poly bushes is something that i wouldnt use anyway but no superstrut doesnt have any where that would warrent a polybush, its all balljoints and spherical bearings up there.

[BonzaiCelica]

oh ok, I get it it doesnt have any bushings on the superstrut ok I see, ya it looks like it by the pics in the first post. So why is it a high maintanence suspension system? or does that only apply to the gt-4 when it used the superstrut for rallying competition and WRC???

[delusionz]

I've read somewhere on the forums that the rear struts from a Superstrut ST202 wont mate up to any of the components from a Non-Superstrut ST202/204, you need everything from the rear, Likewise with the ST205.

As for the fronts, It's obvious you need all the steering components and EVERYTHING, If you got an SS-III front clip with everything then your whole engine bay from left wheel to right wheel would be completely gutted and replaced with ALL of the SS-III parts and it would line up to take the swap.

3S-GE, Superstrut & LSD is an awesome combination when going from not having it to having it as all the bad cornering characteristics about a FWD sports car just disappear. Just keep in mind, good tyres is always just as important. When I went from high performance tyres to budget tyres on the SS-III there was alot of understeer that just appeared out of nowhere.


On a side note: I think after owning an SS-III and a GT-Four, I will never go back to FWD, there's no fun when you can't do anything with your rear like kicking the ass out and helecopters and 4WD drifts

[BonzaiCelica]

ok so you still haven't answered my question, why is the superstrut supension such high maintenance? this only applied to a gt-4 celica, becuase it occasionally see's snow or dirt.

but for an SS-III, the superstrut is just as durable as the macpherson strut suspension if used for street and track driving only?