Max Power NA 7afe ????, Dyno Charts Posted Options

[94celicadude]

Hey all,
I am currently building up my 7afe, i have bought a separate head and have already had new valve guides installed, its been cleaned and i have brand new toyota valves, exhaust and intake, i have had the intake ones machined to have more of the performance "penny on a stick" figure, i will post pics soon but for now here is an example Valves.

I am also going to have the Extrude Hone process ( Extrude Hone ) done to the entire head. The current 7afe in my car has a custom 4-1 headers (Headers), full exhaust, intake, clutch, lightweight flywheel, Apexi S-AFC II, bumped timing to about 14 degrees static timing. If i can find a used GT throttle body i will try to make it work, they seem to be fairly similar. Its been tuned and it has over 225k miles on the original engine. The gear box has been rebuild to brand new, and at last dyno the car was putting just about exactly 100 WHP on a 95 F day.

So i figure its already a healthy working little motor. To make this short, i was wondering who has had the highest NA horsepower out of a 7-afe . I am hoping to be able to build my motor to about 120-130 WHP, that would be ideal but im not sure exactly if i will achieve that goal. The bottom end is going to get first O.S. pistons, the head will be decked for a slightly higher compression ratio, and the entire engine will be blue printed. Then the entire crank assembly will be dynamically balanced with the flywheel and all the accessories on either end of it. Then it will all be put back together and have another tuning session on the dyno.

Now i know that it seems like a lot of money to do everything i am, which it is for only 130 WHP, but im looking to make this a great motor for auto-x. And if i have 200 WHP then ill just create a smoke show, so thats why im not just swapping in something else.

**CLIFF NOTES**

Who has the highest NA power 7afe with dyno numbers to prove it?

This post has been edited by 94celicadude: May 9, 2008 - 5:27 PM

[Bitter]

200whp isnt going to happen, 130-140 crank would be a little optimistic i think without some tinkering with the cams. with what you have listed i'd expect around 110-120whp with a good tune. make sure you do all your runs on the same dyno tho, as theres alot of variation between those things.

[Kwanza26]

Just swap in a 20V 4AG and you'll already have more power stock than any high-tuned 7AFE...

[devilsden97]

^ +1

6gc.net, killing 1 dream at a time.

[Blakout16]

haha ur totally stealing my line. didnt u see i copyrighted that?!

[94celicadude]

^ +1

6gc.net, killing 1 dream at a time.

yea thats about right...lol
i understand that my goals are a little far fetched. I never said ANYTHING about 200WHP out of the motor, if you read carefully i specifically said i didnt want 200 WHP. I am still wondering if anyone has dyno numbers of they 7afe with anything over 100 whp?

[raj1]

here is my dyno results i got last year on my 7afe

the mods were a blitz sonic induction kit with stock intake piping and exhaust with decat. At the time i got my safc II mapped the tuner at the dyno mapped it to a/f 14.6 the end result was 133.8bhp @ the flywheel and 99bhp at the wheels


i have since mapped the safc II myself to a/f 12.8 on the road since i havent been able to afford any dyno time and im sure i have more power now

[95CelicaST]

130 WHP = 4A-GE Silvertop stock

It would be cheaper to swap than to build the 7A... Sad, but true. If you want a good AutoX car then the 4AGE would be great. You would be staying in high RPM's anyways, you might as well add the power of VVT to the mix.

[jason]

doesnt engine swapping change the type of class your in for autox? i could be wrong, but seems like "cheating" in my mind, build the 7a, id respect your efforts to the max!

[Hanyo]

if you are going to try to go all motor, you might was well go for individual throttle bodies.

I think edos holds the record for the most N/A 7afe hp. I THINK he made 130. i can't find the post at the moment.

[j0e_p3t]

Who has the highest NA power 7afe with dyno numbers to prove it?

probably this guy...
http://www.6gc.net/members/edo17982

[bindertch]

Where are you getting an extrude hone job done and how much is that costing you. If it is done right you could outflow a 4AGE. I also think that you should look into getting your head flow tested. After you do that you can figure out your perfect lift from a cam and get your cams reground by any cam manufacturer.

[94celicadude]

Where are you getting an extrude hone job done and how much is that costing you. If it is done right you could outflow a 4AGE. I also think that you should look into getting your head flow tested. After you do that you can figure out your perfect lift from a cam and get your cams reground by any cam manufacturer.

i dont know if i will be able to get the head flow tested, my dad used to have a flow bench but he traded it for having his 76 BMW 90RS restored, but if i can find a place that can do that for me i will. I have also worked out that with the size valves in the 7-afe head, the lift on the cam is optimal, i would not gain much over the entire power band by having the cam reground, i know i could gain up top if i sacrificed low end torque, but the thing is like some said, i want to build a good auto-x motor, and i run mostly in the midrange during auto-x so that wouldnt be as advantageous for me. And yes if i swapped another motor in i would be out of my class. Thanks for edo's profile his motor is a piece of art! and thanks for the member that posted his dyno chart. Does anyone have any other ideas on what i could do to push more power out of this thing, i mean except for the obvious previously stated. Thanks for all your comments and support, i will try to take as many pics of my progress as possible and hopefully help you learn with my mistakes *praying for very few*. Any feedback and ideas are always welcome.

[94celicadude]

doesnt engine swapping change the type of class your in for autox? i could be wrong, but seems like "cheating" in my mind, build the 7a, id respect your efforts to the max!

thanks for the prospective respect

[Bitter]

get a standalone ECM so you can have full control over the engine.

[Kwanza26]

doesnt engine swapping change the type of class your in for autox? i could be wrong, but seems like "cheating" in my mind, build the 7a, id respect your efforts to the max!

if you significantly mod the motor... you change classes also. I'd prefer a swap...

[94celicadude]

Well,

i do not mean to bring this thread back from the dead, but i have gotten a lot of progress done on my 7AFE build. The motor was pulled last week and torn apart to the last nut and bolt. I have few pics but its hard to take pics with dirty hands. I have had the cylinder head ready for several weeks now, all i needed was to pull the motor and do the bottom end.

so as far as the motor goes here is a lis of what will have been done to it:

Top End:

-Head was decked
-New Valve Guides
-New Valves on both intake and exhaust
-Intake Valves have been machined for increased flow
-3-angle valve job
-Cylinder head had Extrude Hone process performed on it
-Combustion chambers were balanced and polished and are within .05 mL of each other
-Cams were shimmed for proper clearances
-Intake Manifold was dipped and cleaned and had a "casting wart" removed from cylinder #4 runner
-Custom Fender Well CAI system w/ K&N

Bottom End:

-Bored .2 over to fit first over-size pistons for slightly higher CR
-New Pistons, rings and appropriate hardware
-New main bearing and rod bearings
-Rod have been shot peened
-Entire rotating assembly has been dynamically balanced (Crank pulley, timing gear, crankshaft, flywheel, pressure plate)
-Block has been decked
-Lightweight flywheel (9lbs) has been resurfaced
-New oil pump
-New water pump
-New Clutch
-Entire Short block assembled by machine shop

Exhaust:

-Custom 4-1 Headers
-Custom 2" SS exhaust
-Removed Cat
-Ebay fart canon on the end of it

I think that this is the majority of the things that have been done to this motor, i may have left out some things but i hope you all understand that appropriate seals and gaskets have also been replaced.

My goal is to get this thing back into my car and running before the end of Feb. i hope to then be able to put miles on it and have it tuned again for optimum performance. I am hoping and praying that we can hit about 120-130 WHP with this setup.

Now for those who are sceptical on why i would have spent so much money on building a NA 7AFE, well i wanted to do something that not too many other have done, and its my auto-x car and i wanted to be able to stay in the same class as i have been competing and winning in, so a motor swap would have put me into a different class completely.

I hope you guys appreciate the amount of work and the few pioneering things that have gone into this build. Questions are welcomed and so are comments. I will try to take more pics of the reassembly stage, i will hopefully be getting bottom end back in a day or two.

PS. Motor put down 100 WHP with 230K miles on it before rebuild, which is higher than most NA 7AFE motors out there, i think...

This post has been edited by 94celicadude: Feb 11, 2008 - 10:00 PM

[lagos]

Good luck. At least your actually doing this and not just dreaming about it like most people. Hope you meet your goal.

[Bitter]

why stay with nearly stock CR? could have bumped it upto a touch over 10:1 without any problems burning pump gas. also are you planning to get cams?

[94celicadude]

well, i had to stay only with the first oversize pistons because the class i run in auto-x allows for only the first over size. Thats the main reason that the CR is stayin close to that, and for cams, i do not yet know but i think that im going to try to get a set of cams reground and possibly play with that for more power, but for the moment i am staying with stock cams.

[n1ckz0r]

^ +1

6gc.net, killing 1 dream at a time.

yea thats about right...lol
i understand that my goals are a little far fetched. I never said ANYTHING about 200WHP out of the motor, if you read carefully i specifically said i didnt want 200 WHP. I am still wondering if anyone has dyno numbers of they 7afe with anything over 100 whp?

I lol at your avat. ANON?

[95st-celica]

sounds good man...good luck...you should be able to squeeze 125 hp out of that i would hope

[laff09]

Whatd it cost you? and when are ya going to get it dyno'd?

[Bricy]

you should look into a set of webcam regrinds, Hurley had some put in her 7a with great results.

[playr158]

I'll donate an extra set of stock cams for a regrind just to see what it does

[zbigb]

I’m following your progress with interest. I am researching the 7AFE in NA form because I am planning on building one too. I have not found much about how these engines respond to bigger cams. I just finished measuring the specs on a set of stock cams from a 1994 Corolla 7AFE and was shocked to see how short the duration is.

Intake 147 degrees @ .050
Exhaust 151 degrees @ .050
Overlap at TDC is less that .020

I have built up lots of different engines over the years and have never seen a cam with such short duration. For this engine to make the power it does with this small of a cam says a lot for the tuning Toyota did. It also says a lot for the combustion chamber and ports. The combustion chamber benefits from being so small and shallow. The fast burn produces lots of torque. You can get high compression with dished pistons and still run on pump gas. If you are doing a rebuild, the Toyota 4AGZE piston can be used to get a good bump in compression. The port design is excellent, and looks very much like the port that was used on the Formula 1 engines. Small, but very straight allowing for high port velocity = wide power band.

I have recently spoken to several cam grinders. I have not found anyone that can get new cores for the cams. This is probably why not many people have been camming the 7A. I found a few cam grinders that will regrind your stock cams for $200 to 250 a pair. These are not welded, so you need to use lash caps under the cam buckets. You can also get welded regrinds for $300 – 600 a pair. You have to be careful with welded regrinds as the process is much harder (easier to screw up). A poorly done weld and cool down process leaves you with a cam that is bent or tends to bend after running.

It is likely that you do not need a big change in duration to feel a difference. The down side of changing the cam is that tuning the engine will likely get way harder. When you change the cam timing, you will need to start the tuning process all over to get the spark timing and a/f correct.

Good luck with your build up and hope you get 130+

[94celicadude]

^^^^^

wow thank you so much for that information, i have been dying to find out what the stock specs on the cams are but have not had the chance to measure them. This will help me out a lot in possibly obtaining a reground cam and getting better power out of this motor.

Thanks all for the positive comments, i just got a call today that the bottom end was done so i will pick it up tom. and start the reassembly process, i will try to take lots of pics in order to show my progress. Ill let you all know how it is going as soon as im done, hopefully the engine will be back up and running within the next two weeks. Wish me luck

Matt

[Bricy]

Good Luck! I know all of us 7a peeps are rootin for ya!

[Bitter]

well, i had to stay only with the first oversize pistons because the class i run in auto-x allows for only the first over size. Thats the main reason that the CR is stayin close to that, and for cams, i do not yet know but i think that im going to try to get a set of cams reground and possibly play with that for more power, but for the moment i am staying with stock cams.

you can get a higher CR with 4age pistons that have been modified slightly, without going over on the bore beyond your class specs. remember than the 4afe, 7afe, and 4age share the same bore diameter.

[94celicadude]

Well i got the bottom end back today, i think the pics are pretty self explanatory. If you have any questions just ask!


Balanced Flywheel and Pressure Plate


Cleaned Intake Manifold


Hole created to remove "casting wart" (I have to weld it on the weekend, ill post a pic of it shut


Close up of said hole


SHINY!!!!


New Water Pump


More shiny/clean pieces


Its truly a lot smaller than you would think


Bottom End Already Assembled


Shot-peened Rods (dunno bout spelling)


New pistons, bored cylinders, decked block


New valves, machined intake valves, balanced/polished combustion chambers


Close Up shot of the exhaust port, that is how smooth the extrude hone process makes it, better than just PORTING!!


Shimming valves


Notice matching marks on cam gears. Its a factory mods


Both cams in and bolted down, all valves shimmed to proper clearances.

I also just realized that i am going to need to remove the cams again to be able to bolt the head on woops

More pics to come soon of final re-assembly. Wish me luck

This post has been edited by 94celicadude: Feb 13, 2008 - 11:31 PM

[markjbutler]

so clean and shiny!!

Wish I had the space/time/knowledge/another car to drive so i could play with my 3sGE like that

[hurley97]

you're doing all that head work and putting the stock cams back in? that's a shame.

it's also a good idea to replace your starter before you put the engine back in the car, it's easier to get to with the engine out.

[zbigb]

If you do add some cams , here is a way to mod your intake for better high end pull. This shortens the intake track and adds a bit of volume to the plenum as well.

[stephen_lee]

If you do add some cams , here is a way to mod your intake for better high end pull. This shortens the intake track and adds a bit of volume to the plenum as well.

would that help stock much? i doubt..

[zbigb]

Probably not. You would loose more low end than you make up on the top end. I would not do this unless you are running some cams with more than stock duration.

[94celicadude]

thnks for all they input.

Hurley, the reason i am putting stock cams into it is because i am trying to increase my power and torque around the midrange of the power band. As in around 2500-4500 RPM.

I do understand that cams would help me out a lot, but i feel that the gain would be mostly up to and i dont want that for specifically one reason, this is an auto-x car, so after i start my racing i go through first and then stay in second for the rest of run, so if my meak power and torque jumps up to around 5000 RPM or higher, the power avaiable to me becomes useless because i will never get that high in the RPM in second, thats reaching around 60 mph and i have rarely ever hit the fuel cut in second gear.

Now i am going to keep my stock cams from my other head and do some work and research to see if i can get a regrind that will in fact give me more power in the midrange.

Once again thank you all for the info and input, wish me luck as i head into the cold garage to put this motor back together.

Matt

[hurley97]

Call WebCams and tell them that, they will find a grind that suits your needs.
When I spoke to them I said my car would be turbocharged eventually, which normally increases power in the mid range so they gave me a grind that would increase slightly overall but kick in around the higher end, this way it holds out the power from the turbo longer.

The reason I say it's a shame to put the stock cams back in is this: you are doing all this work to make your head flow better, however, the head can only feed as much as the cams will let it. If the cams are opening the valves the same as before, you can take in as much air as you want through the intake plenum but the valves are only going to open enough to let in the same amount of air as before.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, yes it will run better and yes the head will flow better, but you aren't going to get the results I think you are looking for without being able to pull more air in through the valves, which you need bigger cams for.

[Bitter]

another good power adder for your midrange (dont know if this would change your auto-x class) is the ebay header. it moves that torque you feel from about 1500 rpm to about 3000 rpm rather nicely. i carve a canyon in 2nd gear and you really stay more in the powerband with the ebay header than the stock cast manifold. heatwrap it to keep your engine bay temps down, it does let out ALOT of heat. also, it weighs about 1/2 the stock part does.

[jason]

i think dustin's dyno shows a little if any gain through the bottom & mid range of the curve, then up high is where the stock fell off where the reground kept rising

like steph said, im sure if you called them for a specific purpose, they could make something for you. the 7a's max torque i believe is right at or around 3,000 so if you are keeping it between 2500 - 4500 anything above 3000 is going to be in the torque falloff part.

so if you were to get them reground, give yourself 15hp extra above 4000 (help on longer straights) keep the same stock torque down low, but add another 10ft/lbs from 3000 - 3500 you should have a descent performance, 10% about over stock - plus your additional mods that i dont believe steph and dustin did. (yes i know his was on a 5s)

i think you should consider getting a spare set re-ground. worse case, sell them to someone who wants a higher top end, and put your stockies back in. playr said he would even donate some to you =)

[Bitter]

actually from what i've seen the 7afe holds peak torque from about 2500 rpm till nearly 5200rpm and then it begins to fall slightly as the HP rises to its peak around 5600-5800rpm.

just because peak torque comes on early doesnt mean it falls off early either.

[94celicadude]

I have been contemplating doing the cam regrind, and i mean for anyone who has removed cams on a 7afe its really not hard, so even doing it in the car would be fine.

I think what is going to happen for now is im going to get the engine past its break in period, have it tuned again and see where i stand. I will then talk with Webcams and see if they can truly grind something that would give me the midrange kick that im looking for without pushing my peak power to 5500 rpm.

i REALLY appreciate all the info and input you are all giving me, it is most definitely helping me in achieving my most powerful NA 7afe motor. I did get most of the motor put back together yesterday, i have the head and bottom end all assembled and torqued, i will try to take a few pics. I should hopefully have it all done by the end of the day, depending on how long it takes me to clean up my intake plenum.

Once again thank you all for the input, its a great help. And thanks for the offer to donate some cams, but i have a spare set of stock cams myself, so if i decide to regrind those and they arent what i want, i make take you up on that offer for a donate set in order to try a different regrind.

*runs to garage to finish the motor*

Matt

[Brightside]

Interesting project you have here Matt.

I'm curious if you've done any port matching on the intake/heads/headers (or exhaust manifold) - especially since you had the runners in the heads opened up. It seems like you would want them to match spot-on if you really wanted this engine to breath as well as possible.

How much did you deck the head & block? Did you just deck them to get them true, or did you shave enough to actually change the compression ratio?

This post has been edited by Brightside: Feb 18, 2008 - 1:45 PM

[94celicadude]

Interesting project you have here Matt.

I'm curious if you've done any port matching on the intake/heads/headers (or exhaust manifold) - especially since you had the runners in the heads opened up. It seems like you would want them to match spot-on if you really wanted this engine to breath as well as possible.

How much did you deck the head & block? Did you just deck them to get them true, or did you shave enough to actually change the compression ratio?

Yes, i have not actually gotten to that part but it is in my plans to match the intake and exhaust ports to intake and exhaust manifolds.

The exhaust gasket and headers are actually fairly well matched, but i will touch them up just to make sure they are spot on. I think im going to have to work on the intake side a little more though, i am also going to make sure that the throttle body and intake plenum are all properly matched as well.

the head was decked in order to true it, and the block was decked by about two thousands in order to have it be true as well, so the intent was not to purposely raise the compression ratio even though i know that it did slightly.

My father did all the calculations and the engine will be running a 10:1 compression ratio with the head and block having been decked and the first over sized pistons, which is slightly higher than stock but i dont know exactly how much more it is.

I have gotten all of the engine assembled, all i need to do is finish porting the intake plenum and put the TB and intake manifold back onto the engine and it is ready to go back into the car. I will be putting it back in the car on saturday or sunday.

I will post pictures of my progress during the week.

Matt

[Bitter]

stock CR for the 7afe is about 9.5:1 so 1/2 a point i doubt you'll really feel it.

when you really feel a bump in CR is when its several points above what it was before. like going from 8:1 to 12:1. increasing CR makes more torque which through wonderful math makes more HP, but the nice thing about bumping the CR is that it makes torque all over the power band, not just in one spot.

btw, my GF's moped runs a higher CR than your car (and my car and just about any car on the road 13:1)

This post has been edited by Bitter: Feb 18, 2008 - 11:31 PM

[Kwanza26]

Hurley, the reason i am putting stock cams into it is because i am trying to increase my power and torque around the midrange of the power band. As in around 2500-4500 RPM.

I do understand that cams would help me out a lot, but i feel that the gain would be mostly up to and i dont want that for specifically one reason, this is an auto-x car, so after i start my racing i go through first and then stay in second for the rest of run, so if my meak power and torque jumps up to around 5000 RPM or higher, the power avaiable to me becomes useless because i will never get that high in the RPM in second, thats reaching around 60 mph and i have rarely ever hit the fuel cut in second gear.

Nice pictures and nice work... but worthless without pistons and cams. You just can't make significant power without modifying compression and cams. I don't know who gave you the idea that camming a 7AFE will "move the torque curve to the high rpms" but seriously... it won't be that extreme. Cams alone are not gonna reverse engineer the head's inherit flow design. Cams will likely improve the entire powerband. If you want to call it "moving the torque curve up"... then yeah... it'll do that. That's the nature of the beast. BUT, it's not gonna decrease the low-mid range curve unless you go for some stupid amounts of overlap. I highly doubt a stockish 7AFE's ability to make power beyond 5000-5500 rpms.

As for racing... I haven't AutoX'ed in a while... but I remember rarely dropping below 5000 rpms. I did mostly circuit and club, so I DO want high rpm power over low rpms power because rotational power is much more useful and comes faster at higher speed.

[94celicadude]

After a lot of thought and a lot of being told that without cams and pistons i wont make much more power than stock, i am seriously going to look into cams for the motor. But i still want to run it the way it is to see what kind of gains we have accomplished.

I will post pics soon to keep you guys updated with the process.

Matt

[94celicadude]

Great news all!

i had a first start last night and she purred like a kitten
unfortunately i am missing drive shaft seals (on order) so i was not able to drive her around, she started on the third turn of the key and idled perfectly

here are some more pics of the rebuild, and i have a video of first start up, i just need to post it on a website. Enjoy!

Now its on to break in period, and soon dyno!










There is the patch to fill that hole i made
















So empty


@Friends Inside@...ran kinda ****ty


going back in


Bolted up baby!


Lookin good


Check out them classy company jump suits (im on the left btw, and kyle is on the right)


All buttoned up after first start


So shiny!

Well there is a quick run down of it all, i will try to post up my video of the first sart, and soon i will take her out for a drive, then once the break in period is over she will hit the dyno for another tune...graphs and videos coming soon...

[94celicadude]

Here is a link to the video, please ignore everything that is said or happens after i shut it off, imy parents are dorks..lol and that was my buddy Kyle fiming.

First Startup

[95st-celica]

thats awesome man....good luck with everything and ill be lookin forward to seein some dyno results....do you think you will ever turbo it? because that would be the perfect 7A to turbo.....gl with everything though man

[zero07]

Nice job! Engine looks great!

[stephen_lee]

7AGTE time

[94celicadude]

well so far, turbo is out of the picture, more like cams :-D

[94celicadude]

Well i finally got the car home, about 1 week ago, and it drove just fine on the way home, kept it under 3K RPM at all costs for the ride home. Then i noticed, when changing my wheels, that i had a small leak around what appeared to be my oil dipstick, so i replaced the O-ring and it appeared like the leak got worse, so i went and bought a Toyota O-ring for the dipstick.

Placed that in and now i just noticed that it is not where my leak is coming from. It appears that my oil pump housing is leaking from the block to housing mating surface, now i did not put this part of the short block together, the machine shop i took the motor to did that, are they responsible for repairing it or do i have to get it fixed and they pay for the bill? the only reason i am asking is because yes, i CAN do this repair myself, but that is part of the engine i specifically did not reassemble for that kind of reason, so what do i do?

and has anyone else had this problem after rebuilding a 7afe? whats the fix or do i just need to take the oil pump off and place a new gasket correctly?

Thanks
Matt

This post has been edited by 94celicadude: Mar 6, 2008 - 7:16 PM

[hurley97]

I don't think it's a machine shops responsibility to reseal things but it doesn't hurt to try.

when you reseal it, put a very light layer of FIPG on either side of the gasket.

my oil leak was from the same area but it was the crank seal, it actually popped out. I think the paint was still wet (there was some paint on the seal when it came out) when I put the seal in so it didn't make good contact and slipped out after about 450 miles.

[94celicadude]

I don't think it's a machine shops responsibility to reseal things but it doesn't hurt to try.

when you reseal it, put a very light layer of FIPG on either side of the gasket.

my oil leak was from the same area but it was the crank seal, it actually popped out. I think the paint was still wet (there was some paint on the seal when it came out) when I put the seal in so it didn't make good contact and slipped out after about 450 miles.

not trying to contradict you, but i paid the machine shop to reassemble the entire bottom end of the motor, why would it not be their responsibility to make sure that it is sealed? it only makes sense that they should seal it up the right way, or they should have just handed me back the oil pump and told me to put it back on.

And i hope, but i dont think that it is the crank seal because the leak is coming from sligltly higher than the crank, and its on the outside of the oil pump housing, its not coming of the timing belt cover or anything...

Thanks for the info though, i will talk to the machine shop and see what they say.

[hurley97]

only reason I said that was because [in general] machine shops do just that, machine things, and nothing more. I don't know what you worked out with them or anything like that. If that's what you paid them to do then yes it is their fault I guess and you should see what they are willing to do for you about redoing it. but if they didn't do it right the first time I honestly wouldn't let them do it again and just do it myself, but that is just what I would do.

[lagos]

Get yourself some UV dye and a black light. Add it to your oil, and youll know exactly where the leak is coming from.

Did you hand the machine shop a brand new OEM gasket and oil pump? If you did, they probably installed it. You have to understand that stuff happens during an engine rebuild. Instead of trying to put the blame on the machine shop, just get in there and fix it yourself. These types of issues are almost unavoidable.

This post has been edited by lagos: Mar 6, 2008 - 9:23 PM

[94celicadude]

well i think i was a bit harsh on my usage of words and blaming the machine shop, it is not only a machine shop but a performance engine building shop as well, thats why i would only have assumed that they should have sealed it correctly.

They obtained a complete engine gasket kit so they had a new gasket for it, and they also rebuilt the stock oil pump, so in other words, new oil pump but same housing. After some discussion with my father i think we have both come up with a possible conclusion to our oil leak.

The first night i drove the car home was the first time that it fully warmed up and was driven at all, so our assumption is that the difference in expansion rates between the aluminum oil pump housing and the cast iron block allowed to the bolts that hold the housing on to slacken a little after the first run and cool down of the motor. So i will go back and re-torque all of the oil pump housing bolts and see if that cures my problem, if not then i will have to remove the oil pump and replace the gasket. I am also going to contact the shop that did the work and ask if they agree, these guys are very knowledgeable and this is why i was so surprised when this started leaking.

Hopefully a re-torque of the oil pump housing bolts will cure it, i mean it is a brand new motor with only 17 miles on it after all, so it is safe to assume that a few things may need to be re-torqued after it has run for a little while.

Once again thanks for the advise to all, i will keep you posted on further development.

Matt

[lagos]

it is not only a machine shop but a performance engine building shop as well, thats why i would only have assumed that they should have sealed it correctly.

They probably did... and you know what... stuff happens. Thats just the nature of working on cars.
Now if you start getting rod knock after a few miles, then I would start getting mad at the machine shop.

Btw, don't think trying to be rude, just trying to put things in perspective. A small oil leak is not the end of the world.

I really dig your project too. It might not set any horse power records, but I love how much attention to detail you put into doing things right. Mad props!

[hurley97]

I agree with Art. That was also why I told my oil leak story, to make the point that these kind of things are going to happen and you just need to take care of them as they come and move on. If this ends up being your only problem you are lucky, I spent a good $400-500 on things that went wrong after the rebuild. i.e. towing, coolant, oil, crank seal, alternator, O2 sensor, not to mention the added frustration of having all that go wrong on a motor with less than 1,000 miles that I just put a lot of time, work, and money into.

I also think this is a great project, I thought I was the only one who thought the 7A was worth rebuilding, its nice to know I'm not alone

[94celicadude]

thanks to both Lagos and Hurley for the props,

i finally figured out what my oil leak problem was, turns out that the vavle cover gasket was leaking from the top where that semi-circular plug goes. So after all the time in taking the belts and timing covers off, i re torqued the oil pump bolts and found them all properly tightened.

So i was a little fast with my conclusions and placing the blame on the machine shop, they in fact did a great job.

A little update:

Motor now has about 800 miles on it, runs strong, and pulls even stronger up top, cant wait to get the miles on it to have it tuned and give you guys a new dyno chart

After i fixed my oil leak, i have not had one problem since, the only thing that i am unsure of is that the valve train makes a funny noise, and its very hard to explain but here goes anyways.

It is most definetly NOT a valve tick from too big of clearances, but it almost sounds like it is a sound of the entire valve train being slightly too tight?... that is the only way i can describe the noise, i will try to take a video and post it up, maybe all the genuises on this site could give me some insight.

Despite that noise, the engine runs extremely smoothly, and it pulls like never before...i am overjoyed with the way things turned out.

Check back for another update in a few weeks to possibly see new dyno charts..and possibly one of the most powerful NA 7AFE motors around.. i hope *crosses fingers*

Matt

[stephen_lee]

this is exciting!

[hurley97]

It is most definetly NOT a valve tick from too big of clearances, but it almost sounds like it is a sound of the entire valve train being slightly too tight?...

then that is probably exactly what it is, the clearances are on the tighter side. it's not a huge deal as long as they are within spec or very close to it at least. you know exactly how everything went together, trust your own instincts.

[94celicadude]

well, the more i drive the car, to more it is kind of devlopping a tick noise, maybe i was wrong and it is too big of valve clearances, i will concur with my dad, who is truly the genuis behind the operation, and see what he says. He has been gone for 1 month so he actually has not heard the engine running yet...we shall see.

Once again, thanks for + comments and support, i will try to keep updating as thing unfold.

[Bitter]

so whats the good word?

[Bitter]

so what ended up happening? no news is good news?

[94celicadude]

Hey all!

sorry there has not been any updates lately...i have had the engine dynoed and got it tuned.

I will have to post the graphs later because i am very busy and this is finals week at school....so hopefully you guys can wait

The numbers that came from the dyno were not quite as impressive as i expected, but that is ok because over all, i have gotten about 20% gain in power over a factory motor.

The engine put down if i can recall correctly 107.77 HP and 110.77 TQ at the wheels.

so while those are no huge numbers, taken into perspective, a stock 7 AFE makes that power at the crank, so i figure i have made up for a little more than the loss of power through the gearbox...i think about 18% loss.

Now these are just the raw numbers, so if the proper calculations are made in order to normalize the HP numbers, then the motor puts down about 115 HP to the wheels.

Now the engine runs great, pulls extremely smoothly through the entire powerband and it makes it a joy to drive. I cannot wait to auto-x the car now, it also has been dropped another .5" so that should be relatively fun....to see what types of improvements i get.

Now on a side note, for those of you that have rebuilt a 7-AFE motor, i am wondering if you have ever had any issues with the motor burning oil.

I just did an all highway trip, the motor having about 4000 miles on it, and it was just a straight 200 mile trip on the highway at approx. 70-75 mph constantly.

I had filled up the oil to the full line before leaving for the trip, and then after coming home and letting the car sit for several hours, i checked the oil level and it was 3/4 of a quart LOW!!!!


Now i know that it burns oil on overrun, if i let the engine slow the car down in a gear, as soon as i step on the gas again, it puffs a cloud of blue/ white smoke.

I also know that that comes from bad valve guide/ seals, and the thing is that both were replaced in the rebuild.

Does anyone know if there is a difference in between the intake valve and exhaust valve seals? and could my head builder have possibly swapped the seals from one side to the other...so having reversed them from where they are supposed to go?...

I would love some insight on this before i decide that i am going to pull the head and replace, once again the valve guides and seals, hoping that this time they will do their job.

Once again all, thank you for support, and i hope that my posts have helped someone.

Let me know

Thanks
Matt

This post has been edited by 94celicadude: May 4, 2008 - 9:45 PM

[Bitter]

hows the compression look?

[o0black0o]

Not worth it.. I fully set up my 7afe and I got pissed off that I only got like 20 hp and sold it.

Don't get a header. You will loose HP and gain barely any torque. Just get an Intake and make yourself have a clean ride with some beats and clean rims, maybe a body kit.

[Bitter]

Not worth it.. I fully set up my 7afe and I got pissed off that I only got like 20 hp and sold it.

Don't get a header. You will loose HP and gain barely any torque. Just get an Intake and make yourself have a clean ride with some beats and clean rims, maybe a body kit.

i'd have to disagree, i feel like i picked up torque all over but especially above 3000 rpm. though i have advanced timing a few degrees.

[94celicadude]

Not worth it.. I fully set up my 7afe and I got pissed off that I only got like 20 hp and sold it.

Don't get a header. You will loose HP and gain barely any torque. Just get an Intake and make yourself have a clean ride with some beats and clean rims, maybe a body kit.

Please do a little more reading of my ENTIRE thread before you start telling me what to do and not do, maybe you would have seen that i have a custom built 4-1 header that did do something for me.

Bitter, the compression is just fine, i also just talked to my builder and he suggested that because i have a breather filter set up on my valve cover, it is not creating the necessary vacuum in the crank case in order to have the engine run with a closed circuit. The reason i have it set up with breather filters is so the blow back from the engine will not come out of the valve cover and go back directly into the engine the way it does from the factory.

I am going to try to make a catch can set up in order to catch that excess blow back but still be able to run the engine in a closed vacuum loop.

I will try to let you all know how it goes.

[Bitter]

cool, i hope that solves your issue.

[DEATH]

94Celicadude: This info straight from a very experienced Toyota Tech:
Engines will appear to consume oil on long relatively uninterupted trips because some of the water content of the oil will evaporate out due to the abnormally long heat cycle. Normally this water content will be allowed to condense back into the oil on short trips. He says your consumption of oil is perfectly normal and to take it from someone who has done waaay too many oil changes in his lifetime - don't worry - you're engine is fine. One side note: If it does this during normal everyday driving then something is leaking and you should check it out.
Hope this helps.

[94celicadude]

94Celicadude: This info straight from a very experienced Toyota Tech:
Engines will appear to consume oil on long relatively uninterupted trips because some of the water content of the oil will evaporate out due to the abnormally long heat cycle. Normally this water content will be allowed to condense back into the oil on short trips. He says your consumption of oil is perfectly normal and to take it from someone who has done waaay too many oil changes in his lifetime - don't worry - you're engine is fine. One side note: If it does this during normal everyday driving then something is leaking and you should check it out.
Hope this helps.

thanks for the advice from your friend the Toyota Tech,

but i think my problem is slightly bigger here, in just under 200 miles on a highway trip the engine consumed almost a whole quart, that is 1 QUART of oil, and that is very abnormal.

I know that the engine runs just fine and it has great power and torque curves, but this extremely high oil consumption is very odd, i will try to make a catch can for my engine and see if that solves my problems. It should hopefully solve the majority of the oil consumption issue.

Thanks for all the input, i am always willing to listen to everybody's knowledge, helps me to learn as well.

Matt

[DEATH]

Sh*t I read 2000 miles somehow - yeah that is abnormal - sorry man. Good luck with it.

[94celicadude]

Well i fixed my oil consumption problem, i just hooked up the lines from the valve cover back to the intake manifold the way they should be and it instantly stopped burning oil....but

there is always a but with this car..lol

now the idle sits where it should, at about 750-850 RPM, and it is low enough that my oil light comes on at idle, so i have low oil pressure at idle....so for now i am back to having the breather filter set up so the idle sits higher at about 1K RPm and i dont have the oil pressure problem.

I think i will just have to bump up the idle a little bit in order to overcome the low oil pressure at idle and then i should be ok...

Will update soon

[94celicadude]

Sorry for the bad quality picture, my scanner sux...but here it is

[94celicadude]

Well here it comes back from the dead... again

After 10K miles on this new motor, oil consumption is 1 FULL quart for 200 MILES!!!!!!!!!!! :-O

so the head came off this past weekend, before hand though, compression test revealed low compression on ALL cylinders, and 3 & 4 were virtually useless.

Upon head removal, combustion chamber 3 & 4 valves were found to leak.... MASSIVELY

The piston to cylinder clearance is going to be calculated sometime within the next week once we get the pistons out, but it seems like the compression rings and oil control rings my have been swapped, or put in upside down.

Crank case is pressurized causing extreme blow by and thus the high oil comsumption as well.

So that may answer my question to why we only put 107 HP tot he wheels, the motor has been running in very poor performing conditions, mechanically everything was correct because it made it to CALI and back to the midwest, but the oil consumption was through the roof.

The bottom end and valve job was done by a shop, so unfortunately we cannot say that we goofed on the build up of the head and bottom end, they did.


So the goal is to sort out all the problems, get this thing back together and possibly see around about 120 WHP...that would be GREAT!

Just thought id update everyone after such dismal and disapointing results.

Let me know if anyone has suggestions,

Thanks to all

Matt

This post has been edited by 94celicadude: Sep 15, 2008 - 11:07 PM

[slow_yota]

Read the whole thread...Hope all is well and you get this thing going the way it should.I built my last celica up like this and was so-oo pissed when **** started going wrong after only a few thousand miles and 2g in the motor.keep us updated =]

[94celicadude]

will do.

Thanks for the support, i hope to finally be able to truly say that i have built on of the most powerful NA 7AFE motors, because with what we got this past run, clearly a motor with a 50 shot would walk me all day long. So i hope we can see around 120 or more WHP soon.

Thanks again

Matt

[Bitter]

damn, i wonder what failed? just ****ty machine shop work or an actual part problem?

[94celicadude]

well either the machine shop bored the block out bigger than needed for the pistons, or they incorrectly installed the piston rings, but either way all the probelms that we developed from that are linked to an improper assembly of the bottom end.

it is a real shame too cuse they were highly recommended to us, and it seems like they may have messed up. Hopefully they will be nice enough to help us repair the problems and situation.

[hurley97]

Now on a side note, for those of you that have rebuilt a 7-AFE motor, i am wondering if you have ever had any issues with the motor burning oil.

I just did an all highway trip, the motor having about 4000 miles on it, and it was just a straight 200 mile trip on the highway at approx. 70-75 mph constantly.

I had filled up the oil to the full line before leaving for the trip, and then after coming home and letting the car sit for several hours, i checked the oil level and it was 3/4 of a quart LOW!!!!


Now i know that it burns oil on overrun, if i let the engine slow the car down in a gear, as soon as i step on the gas again, it puffs a cloud of blue/ white smoke.

I also know that that comes from bad valve guide/ seals, and the thing is that both were replaced in the rebuild.

Does anyone know if there is a difference in between the intake valve and exhaust valve seals? and could my head builder have possibly swapped the seals from one side to the other...so having reversed them from where they are supposed to go?...

I would love some insight on this before i decide that i am going to pull the head and replace, once again the valve guides and seals, hoping that this time they will do their job.

I know you've already figured this all out but I thought I'd answer some of your concerns anyway...

First, my rebuild 7A consumes almost no oil at all. I had already changed the oil 3 times within the first 4k miles then again when I needed to swap the head, all those times I hadn't really checked how much was taken out since I did it at work and emptied it right into the waste oil container.
The last oil change (before the turbo install since I changed it then as well) I did right outside the house and emptied the used oil back into a container to find out if there was any consumption. There was about 13k miles on the motor at that point, I took out just under 4qts, when you account for residual oil in the pan and the filter full of oil it was probably a hair over 4qts, which is just what I put in.

Second, blue/white smoke on start up is valve seals, smoke while your driving is an indication for the oil control rings on the pistons.

Third, the valve seals are generally the same sizes but the rubber on the intake and exhaust seals are different. It probably makes no difference but the valve seals with the darker rubber part are the intake seals and the ones with the lighter gray rubber part are for the exhaust side.

[Bitter]

are you burning coolant? i'm sort of wondering if you dont have a head gasket failure!

[94celicadude]

no there is no coolant being burned. The head gasket was intact when i removed the cylinder head.

The problem is truly all with oil consumption, i had a problem with the car burning oil on over run, when u get up to 75 in third and just let the car slow down in third to about 50 and then just step on the gas normally, a big blue puff of smoke would appear...that was caused by the fact that there was too much pressure from the crankcase, and it blew oil back up and was sucked past the valve stem seals on over run, i managed to solve that problem before i even pulled the head.

But there was still an extremely high oil consumption, hence the 1 quart for ever 200 miles driven...NOT NORMAL.

I do understand that there are different types of rubber for the valve stem seals, and i hope the shop assembled it correctly, my guess is that one rubber is slightly more heat resistant than the other, for the exhaust valves.

The only thing that we can assume is that there was a mistake in the assembly of the bottom end, ie the pistons rings were placed incorrectly or the bore on the block was not properly matched to the piston sizes.

Once again, i will be able to tell what the real problem is once i have pulled out the pistons, until then these are only assumptions.

I appreciate the thoughts and inputs from everyone, please keep them coming i am always open to suggestions.

Thanks again

Matt

[7afe_carina]

**Waking up the dead**

And then the thread just ends before he told what the problem was...
Like reading a book where the last pages are ripped out