Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Teh Official "Dude Where's My Forum?" Thread
6G Celicas Forums > Other > Off Topic
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160
Bitter
I will certainly post photos. The Autopal have pretty terrible foreground, once you use something better you'll understand what I'm talking about more.
Box
So finally got the radiator drain plug out, of course it had to be stubborn and trying to remove old plastic that's constantly heated and cooled without breaking is always fun. The coolant looks brand freaking new, I could've reused it but oh well. That's ok I wanted new coolant in it anyway just to know exactly where I stood in terms of mileage and age. Now for the block drain plug and then to flush with distilled water, then drain again and get to work on removing the pump. Fun fun...
Bitter
Don't forget your shower cap!

Too bad the opti spark is buried, otherwise I'd say take it out for safety sake.
Box
Had to come back in to get a better picture of the drain plug location, this crawling around on the ground is kicking my ass. Once you go lift nothing seems as swift, or something like that. Since they're both cam driven you'd think they could've done the Opti on top, oh well.
Box
Ughh can't reach the freaking drain plug... I don't even know then since it needs to be as empty as possible because of the stupid Opti-spark.

Scratch it, took the inlet hose off then taped off the thermostat housing neck then used the Shop-Vac on the inlet line to pull everything into the radiator where it can be drained. Will be able to flush it but seems will have to finish tomorrow since today was such a cluster.
ClevelandGaint
So......... I bought a new toy today, 92 vr4 to be beside my 94 vr4. Extremely happy right now
Box
Every time I hear VR4 or 3000GT I still get mad, they're the reason I won't buy a car with an interference motor that uses a belt. Long story short previous owner snapped the belt and only threw on another then sold it, wasn't noisy initially but sure enough after buying it gives up on life. Though if I could find one that was actually looked after properly and had documentation on maintenance I might be willing to give one another go, turbo V6 AWD is interesting and unique. That's ok even when they were well looked after that doesn't protect you from Mitsubishi having over engineered everything. Anyhow, pictures!

Sooo only took me like 4-5 hours to get all the coolant out... Of course a lot of that was time wasted trying to get to the bolt drain plug and fiddling with the radiator drain plug initially. That and it legitimately kills me to crawl on the ground even with cardboard to lay on. Decided will flush tomorrow since it's dark that and I figure it's better for the cooling system to be empty and sealed with antifreeze residue than full of water and sealed. I do have some good news though, it's the cleanest 20 year old cooling system I've ever seen.
Bitter
That is good news.

I fixed my bulb problem, there's enough room inside the switch to locate a 5MM LED and I happen to have one prewired for 12V laying around, so I soldered it to the switch and it's now lit, although a little too bright. I'll tint the nose of the LED with some sharpie later. If I roll the dimmer full dim it's about as bright as the bulbs on full bright.
Box
I can't tell you how nice it is to have a car where the previous owners genuinely cared about it, I'm just ready to get the new pump on it and drive it again though.

Huzzah LEDs to the rescue! Reminds me I need to get around to doing interior LEDs still.
ClevelandGaint
Back story on it, has 90k, the 120k maintance was already perform, binder full of receipts since New. 2nd owner, original was the guys father. I know the horror stories behind them. I've owned closed to 10 different 3ks through out the year. Can work on them with my eyes closed. Oil pump, water pump and timing belts are number one things that need changed always. I usually do them every 50k. The active aero still works which is great. Interior is near mint as well. Only problem is the clear coat is going
Bitter
Yea, sometimes that old **** I have laying around does come in handy! It's a little different shade of green but it's illuminated now! I'm trying to get it buffed up but holy hell badly oxidized single stage paint, especially a pigment rich one like red, is such a mess to work with. This paint is SO soft that just wiping the residue off after working a panel gets my MF towel soaked in red paint that takes forever to wash out by hand and gets on EVERYTHING. I hate it so much. Also I can't find my bottle of forever black but I also haven't used it in a year so it was likely dried up. Ordered a new bottle, she's getting blacked trim against the shiny red paint instead of the original gray, it'll really change the look of the car and make the two colors pop against each other nicely! I did M7 glaze the hood twice and the first time it just soaked it up, debating on doing a 3rd round since that paint gets so much abuse between the hot engine and sun beating on it, the paint is dry on this car. That glaze just really pushes those deep gloss oils back into single stage so nicely, I think I'll do a more thorough rub in of the paint on the whole car just this once to get it a little more rejuvenated before the 476 wax goes over top.
Box
I think that's the secret to getting a good used car, buy from the first or second owner. I'm the third owner of the Firebird and it's the nicest car I've owned, though the Celica was nice too after my uncle sorted it.

She won't recognize the Capri, she'll think you got a newer one. laugh.gif Also I hate red paint, that is all.
Bitter
Yea, I did this once before a number of years ago, hopefully she keeps up with it better this time. The paint is in poor shape in general, rubbed through on the edges in places to the white base coat. Softest paint I've seen on a car really, crazy stuff.

So out of boredom I began to rub another coat of M7 glaze on the hood, I'm doing it more slowly and in small sections with more rubbing in straight lines one way then perpendicular the other way several times, I can clearly see the paint change a shade darker from a red orange to a red. This is why I love M7 glaze so much, this is the color red it was when it was new. But now I have to do the whole hood and fenders at least to the pin stripe lines, damnit. I should do the doors too...but M7 is a pain to work with since to do it right you HAVE to do it in small sections with lots of hand rubbing and on a car with paint like this it has to be done 2-3 times since the first and sometimes 2nd application is just sucked up into the paint so fast it doesn't go on right. I don't want to invest that kind of time into it, so I'm going to keep it to the hood area only.
Box
Have to love that single stage paint. That's ok I never got around to detailing my paint, maybe next weekend. Just now finally had a weekend in the 60's, but it's supposed to be in the 80's again tomorrow and the following week. Apparently Alabama didn't get the memo it's ****ing Fall, as usual.
Bitter
Going to wash/clay/wax a Highlander this afternoon, clear coated paint FTW. It's headlights are horribly hazed up, past the point of buffing. If they still have the car in the spring I might offer to try to clear them, they won't be perfect but they'll be better.
Box
Wash, clay, and wax a Highlander... I guess at least it isn't the Sequoia.

Speaking of headlights, ended up buffing out the CRV's for my grandmother. Got them 95% better but she had somewhere to go so I'll have to get the other 5% some other time, also changed out the bulbs for the 60W/55W Autopal H4's I took out for the CP bulbs and good thing too since the passenger bulb had a scorch mark on it and the driver side didn't look much better. Had to have been the original bulbs and I don't think the headlights had ever been polished out, hopefully now she can see better driving at night when she has to.

Which I just had a thought, I wonder how well soda blasting would do as a first step in restoring plastic headlights.
1994Celica
At work we ended up talking about cars. One guy kept on about how the cts v is just a Cadillac body on a corvette chasis. I didn't want to get into it with him about how that's not really right....
Bitter
It's not so bad, I'm about 20% clayed in 30 minutes and that's not working hard. Lowers of the doors and the front bumper will get REAL clay, rest gets the clay cloth. Even going to do a few swipes on the roof too and wax it. Just tossing on 476, no sealant or cure time.
Box
QUOTE (1994Celica @ Oct 23, 2016 - 1:38 PM) *
At work we ended up talking about cars. One guy kept on about how the cts v is just a Cadillac body on a corvette chasis. I didn't want to get into it with him about how that's not really right....

Some people are stupid like that, for what it's worth the CTS is Sigma I/II(though the Cadillac XLR was a Y-body) and the Corvette is STILL a Y-body. Yep the same platform from 1984 is still hiding somewhere in the C7 Corvette, though I guess it's Y-body II since the first Y-body platform ran from 1960-1982. I guess if it's not broke don't fix it? Seems to be the GM motto anyway. laugh.gif

Finally finishing up flushing and draining the cooling system, outside of beating me up and being a total pain things are going ok. Going to let it cool down some before getting to the pump. Oh yeah get this ****, the thermostat looks brand new too. laugh.gif I'll have to write a thank you letter to the previous owner and thank them for being car smart. This is why I'm NEVER getting rid of the Firebird, I am NEVER this lucky.

Clay barring is the worst part for me, the bending over and working a tiny section for awhile kills me. I really need to get that clay towel and call it real as far as claying goes.
Bitter
All done, cleaned up better than expected actually. Claying all the **** off the paint brought the gloss back big time, could have used a buff to take out a lot of the fine scratches and swirls but not this time and probably never.
Box
Well I got all the hoses off before it started getting dark, so just slid them back on so can just pop them all off and tuck them out of the way to get started on the pump. Waiting on the engine to cool off and then a few hoses had the clamps tightened from underneath for some reason killed time, so maybe tomorrow will get the new pump on then wait until Tuesday to fill it up and bleed it...
Bitter
Box
I know it's terrible, ****ing fibro and working on the ground don't get along at all. It actually just pisses me off, I can't do half the **** I used to be able to do and what I can takes me twice as long or longer. Which I guess it's an improvement before starting the LDN in which I could do pretty much nothing, at least I'm able push myself if needed and I can do light duty work or desk work. Which it could always be worse, but it's still aggravating at times...
Bitter
I've just been spoiled by work, I don't want to do **** on a jack at home anymore even though I'm perfectly capable. I need to flush the Celica brake fluid and can do it at home, have I? nope.
Box
A lift helps immensely, when I changed all the fluids I was able to use a shop lift but I also knew I could finish it all in one afternoon so taking up a needed bay because I couldn't finish quick enough wasn't a concern along with figuring out getting home and back. Then again with a lift I probably could have done it all in an afternoon, really it's just all the preparation to get to removing the pump is all I've done. Not being able to get to the block drain bolts made draining and flushing a much bigger ordeal than it would've been, had to go between crawling under car to drain and leaning over car to fill then rinse, wash, and repeat a few times while letting it run for a couple minutes each time to mix the coolant and distilled water. Then after all that used the Shop-Vac to pull any remaining coolant after the last drain, and by the time it cooled off enough to take hoses off I saw where for some reason three had hose clamps upside down so doing that in a cramped space from above was a pain since I wasn't about to crawl under the car all the way with it on a jackstand on a gravel driveway.

I should only have to pop the hoses and intake back out of the way then can get to removing the ignition coil and smog pump bracket that's over the driver side of the pump, then can get to covering the Opti to be extra safe and removing the pump itself and putting the new one on. Then it's just a matter of letting the RTV on the pump gaskets cure before filling it and bleeding it.

Also speaking of jacks and having to work on crap at home, low profile aluminum floor jacks are the best thing ever. So much lighter and easier to maneuver than the big steel ones, close to a third of the weight and a good bit smaller too. Of course the weight capacity is also less, but for any actual car I can think of it does the job.
Bitter
Man those new zinc battery terminals are tight to get onto a positive terminal! They sure do clamp down like the dickens though, and I don't feel like I'm going to strip the little bolts when I clamp the wires to it. I like!

Here's the green LED in the headlight switch to illuminate it, before I dim it down any.



I'll try some sharpie on the nose of the LED, that's the only thing I can think of to easily cut the light down some other than trying to desolder and solder another resistor inline, but then I need to figure out what resistor and what resistor is already on the LED and I'm sure I don't have the right value laying around.
Box
Finally got the old pump off and the new pump in and everything back together, will fill it and bleed it tomorrow afternoon and hopefully good to go. Some other good news it turns out the plug wires were changed after all since the contacts were bright and shiny as I had to take a few off to get to one of the bracket bolts. I can't tell but I think the Opti might've been changed, the front cover is bright yellow then the middle section housing is black and the part of the housing next to the timing cover is bright yellow. Oh and you couldn't spin the old pump by hand, so I should get a few hp regained right? laugh.gif

Also I want to know what people's problem is since there's no way for coolant to just drip or drain onto the Opti if you drain the system, I guess maybe they're not draining it thoroughly so when they pull the pump off it dumps onto it? Or they just didn't bother draining it at all? Even then how the coolant ports in the block are positioned in relation to the Opti it seems like you'd really just have to try in order for coolant to get onto it. Even the weep hole everyone talks about is out in front of the Opti a fair amount. From the way everyone talks if the wind blows the wrong direction it's all over, seeing everything and doing it all in person I'm a lot less worried about it than what I was a few days ago.
Box
Could sharpie the LED like you said or perhaps try a layer of 35-70% tint on the back of the button face.
Bitter
Getting that deep into the button doesn't look easy, I'll try sharpie!


The problem is coolant DOES blow back against the block and onto the Opti and any moisture in there is bad as the electrical parts are NOT potted in any way. They're very sensitive to moisture, that optical pickup is delicate.
Box
That or maybe some kind of cover on the LED if that doesn't work.

At least the revision Opti is sealed and has ventilation so I don't foresee problems outside of user neglect or error. My father's '96 Z28 never had an Opti issue in it's almost 200K miles, ate through 4L60Es like no tomorrow though. From what I've found it's not so much the optical sensors but the cap and rotor, Mitsubishi and Nissan used a variation of Opti-spark and you never really hear about them having problems like you do on the LT1 and the sensors are the same between them all. Or at the very least it'd appear Mitsubishi made the sensors for GM and Nissan as well.
Bitter
I've replaced as many of those Nissan distributors as I have GM ones. Had a Caprice LT with Opti that was doing some weird ****, it was throwing a code for CKP but it was the Opti at fault since it was taking the Opti as truth and so CKP MUST be wrong, nope, the CKP was correct and the Opti had the incorrect timing due to moisture inside, 96 so a later model Opti too!
Bitter
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/16758/ good article!

http://delteq.com/ That's pretty cool! Those GM coils are pretty stout things, they make higher power aftermarket ones too. If you ever get into camming that engine that would be a worthy upgrade to get better spark.
Box
Of course there's many that have/had Opti issues which made me as paranoid as I am and even feeling more comfortable with it I'm still going to be overly cautious, but seriously if you open the hood and give things a look over once a week like you should anyway you'll catch many things before they become a problem. Knowing leaking coolant can cause Opti problems that's part of my weekly inspection. Maybe I'm just too OCD, but I rather take a few minutes once a week to visually inspect my fluids etc... than to have something fail unexpectedly going down the road.

If I ever have more money than I know what to do with after doing suspension, brakes, and repainting the car this would be nice: http://www.torqhead.com/index.html
Bitter
That's sweet! And then you've got laptop tuning for the car too.








Box
Indeed, from what I've looked into they seem to have the easiest to install and use conversion as well as being the most thorough.

Good job on the install, looks nicely done. Wooo more light output! Also speaking of wiring harnesses I get to help/do most of the rewiring of my brother's LTD soon now that it's mechanically roadworthy and since for some reason people over the years like to hack up car wiring, and honestly it'd just be easier to rip the old crap out and run new wiring myself than to chase down and diagnose where people have screwed it up. At least I only have to remake the headlight circuit, sidemarker circuit, and the turn signal circuit... Brake lights and tail lights seem to function properly but I'll just redo them as well just to know it's all new and working properly, while I'm at it might as put in a main circuit breaker too. Isn't knowing electrical and everyone knowing you know the best thing ever? laugh.gif

Also your zinc battery connectors remind me, the other day I had the great idea of making battery terminals and connectors out of aluminum but apparently someone has already beat me to it.
Box
I forgot the reverse lights need a microswitch on the shifter since someone (poorly) converted it from column shift to floor shift for whatever reason. I need to look around for a fuse and relay panel with a main fuse or breaker, especially since he's wanting to put a sound system into it. That and see about using a '94+ 5.0 alternator since they're 130 amp and since his has a 302 and from what I can tell they're almost identical in appearance. I like how his project car is also my project car, that's ok though I like helping out and if I can make the car better and safer in the process then it's all good.
Bitter
I'll try to get you some Hella vs Autopal shots tonight.
Box
That was fast shipping, good ole Amazon. Look forward to seeing them.

So I like how the car that's supposed to be a pain in the ass to bleed the cooling system wasn't very hard to bleed at all. Then again I raised the passenger front so the radiator opening was the highest point, opened the bleed valves and removed the radiator cap, then took out the thermostat and filled it from the pump until it leveled out at the bottom of the opening and put the thermostat and housing back on, filled the radiator until it leveled out at the top, closed the bleed valves, topped off the reservoir, and then ran it to temp with the heat on full blast topping off as needed, got to operating temp so the thermostat opened and topped off a little more before putting the radiator cap on and dropping the car down and running it for a few more minutes.

All seems well as I can't even hear the new pump and no leaks outside of a few drips from the outlet hose where I replaced an old worn out spring clamp with a new worm gear clamp after system pressure built up, but retightening it took care of it and retightened the rest for good measure. It could be my imagination but it seems to rev noticeably faster now, then again as bad as the old pump ended up being I'd believe it. Totally worth it in the end. I guess I'll throw a few obscured victory photos into the project thread, had I been thinking I'd have done so right after putting the pump on but my mind was elsewhere at the moment.
Bitter
Buy the Hella.
Box
Waiting for pics. tongue.gif Actually I'm not sure what to do since the halogen upgrades were never intended to be permanent but just an easy more or less plug and play improvement over the sealed beams to hold me over until HIDs, that along with reading in multiple places the Hella high beam was too high in relation to the low beam is why I went with the Autopal lamps in the first place. I don't doubt they're a big improvement based on your feedback but is it a temporary improvement I want to more or less throw money away on I could put towards HIDs or the sound system I've yet to touch I'm not sure. On a similar note I've found a source of inexpensive polycarbonate sheets I can use to make some clear lenses, need to buy some to experiment with and if all goes well may go ahead and do HIDs.
Bitter
HUGE difference, it's gotten late now so probably pics tomorrow, patchy cold drizzle tonight so I'm in. Next evening when it's not so chilly I'll get it out and get some from about 25ft away in the driveway on the white door.



So I was sitting in the car after work for a bit idling, enjoying the heat, chatting with the GF on the phone, and I see some dust or something blow from under my car, then more, that's not dust, it's steam, why is there steam pouring from under my hood, I get out, that's not steam it's smoke, there's smoke under my hood rolling out, what's going on, I pop the hood and there's the acrid smell of burning wire insulation, I spot it bellowing from the now 15yr old fog light harness I poorly put in when I was about 16. I had been meaning to rewire that once I was done with the Capri...
It must have either shorted against itself or rubbed through onto something and shorted, good thing I was idling on the phone and not driving, it could have burned into the cabin since I didn't know what I was doing, the relay is in the cabin under the dash! I'll re-do with a water proof relay, better fuse holder, 12g wiring (got plenty), etc etc. Yikes though!

Had a 20A fuse on it, the fuse plastic melted but the element didn't blow, the terminals in the fuse holder must have been touching or something, scared the heck out of me. I was able to quickly spot everything thanks to that.....UNDERHOOD LIGHT I PUT IN THAT I WAS SURE WAS A DUMB WASTE OF TIME. Look who's laughing now!? Me at myself for thinking it was silly.
Box
Thankfully it decided to do it while sitting still and you were able to take care of it before it got even worse. Also hooray underhood light.

Wait, you've owned the Celica for 15 years? That's crazy, don't you know you're supposed to change cars out once a year? tongue.gif
Bitter
No, my mom has had the Mazda since 99ish, and about 15 years ago when I was 16ish I installed the first set of fogs some old boyfriend gave her, total crap ones but whatever she asked and I did and they worked as in they lit up, so mission accomplished. Years later I've replaced the lamps a few times but left the wiring cause I'm lazy.

I've had the Celica since....7 years ago almost now.
Had the Mazda for about 5-6 years.
Had the Geo for about...4-5 years.
Box
Ahhhh ok makes sense now, I was thinking you got the Celica nearly new at 16 there for a second. tongue.gif The Celica was the longest I've owned a car at around two years, though I genuinely intend to keep the Firebird since I've wanted one since I was a kid and my mom had her '95 Trans Am. That and just the car in and of itself, well maintained hardtop 6-speeds are the unicorn of F-bodies. So it'd seem maybe this is THE car for me even though it's not perfect, but that's any car and I realize that better now. I think even if I got a C5 Vette I'm not sure if I could really part with it. Ehh let's see since I turned 16 and I'm 24 now I've owned in chronological order:
1988 Supra
1989 Supra
1967 Coupe DeVille
1994 3000GT
1995 Celica
1990 Miata
1979 Firebird
1996 Firebird

Though the '79 ended up being a bust after driving it a few times, then again same with the 3000GT. That's ok had I not sold the '79 or sold it earlier/traded it I wouldn't have the '96 so things happen for a reason I suppose.
Bitter
I took a closer look at the wiring mess, it's not so bad, contained to just the area behind the bumper. Fuse holder wasn't shorted inside, the fuse just never burned and it really should have! 20A fuses are what protect cig sockets and those get popped all the time without smoking wires so I think I got one those recalled Chinese fuses from years ago that bit my ass just now. It looks like the furthest forward damage is very near or inside the passenger side foglight, so I'll have to take it off and take a good look to see if something went amiss inside, both were still lit as the harness was smoking though. I'm wondering if maybe the hot wire got pushed against the back of the hot metal reflector housing and melted against it, but that still won't explain the failure of the fuse to do it's job. When I rewire I'll step the fuse down to a 10A fuse as that's about 120W of light which is just a little more than 2x55W H3 bulbs. If the failure was inside the fog and the thing is damaged then it'll just be time to get the Hella MicroDE fogs I guess. Not the kind of money I want to spend on it but oh well, better than melting my car again I guess. I'll rewire with all 12ga stuff and do a much nicer job, honest!
Box
10A would be a much closer match, and hopefully a fuse that'll blow like it's supposed to. I've always had luck with the Buss brand, in fact I have a variety pack I keep in the glovebox so should one blow I'm covered. Speaking of fogs I got a good luck at the underside of the car and the only way I can foresee mounting fog lights would be to remove the nose cone entirely. Hmm Hella MicroDE fogs. *goes to Amazon*
Bitter
Not particularly cheap but they're the only mini fogs that make useful light. Even my larger reflector units are really just for show, they don't do a heck of a lot of good, except once in some really thick fog a month back late at night I drove by just them for a few hundred feet till I was out of a low spot where it was too thick to see with the headlights on glaring back at me. I had to creep along at about 10mph through there, no fun, had about 20 feet visibility!
Box
Hmm, apparently they like to corrode away according to a lot of the reviews on Amazon. I mean sure I guess if that's true Hella should use a better paint but seriously do people not look at their cars? I know I'm probably weird because I like to look at my car for no good reason, but if you wash your car even once a month that's something you should catch and remedy. Like one review said they only lasted two years, sounds like plenty of time to have caught and stopped it but what do I know. Also seems like best price here: https://www.amazon.com/HELLA-H12090041-Watt...=hella+micro+de but only get the housing but from the kit reviews the rest of it sucks anyway so might as well save the $25 or so.
Bitter
I read up about that and came to the conclusion that 90% of the corrosion issues are due to them being mounted in a way that exposes the backside directly to road spray either due to missing or damaged fender liners/splash shields or due to mounting in non OEM locations. The Toyota 4Runner (I think) mounted these as OEM fogs and had issues with them rotting because they were positioned in a direct line with tire spray, a simple bracket to keep spray from directly hitting the back of the light solves all the problems permanently. Honestly just something as simple as a bit of bent sheet metal or plastic behind them fixes it as does putting them out of harms way.
Box
That or maybe Plasti-Dipping or something else to similar effect on the housing to protect them and using electric grease on the connections if you live where they salt the roads.

That's ok it reminds me of a review I came across on Amazon for one of the Hella H4 conversions the other day. The idiot rated them 1 star because after installing the housings the lights flickered and cut out. Uhhhh how is that the ENTIRELY PASSIVE housing's fault? More like you're too stupid to convert wiring from the sealed beam pinout to the H4 pinout. rolleyes.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2024 Invision Power Services, Inc.